Person-to-person real communication
by  2009-11-24
this page is at

      Deluged with responses! I'm sick of over-automated living. Of technophiles monkeying with my computer, forcing me to deal with unwanted intrusive commercial garbage. All these damn pseudo networks of people that spawn no significant contacts. Hell, folks don't have time to think about what to write. Maybe that's the idea -- to prevent us from thinking -- about what's really important. So what is really important? The separation of the world's people into the privileged and the pillaged.[1] That's problem numero uno.

Problem numero uno, separation of the world's people into a minority of privileged and a vast majority of pillaged. It should be unthinkable that other human beings -- and they are always "other", not infrequently with darker skins -- are starved, if not literally to death as defined clinically, to a state of such severely stunted development that they are prevented, at the very least, from ever experiencing a healthy existence.[2]

      My last two announcements [3], each of which I widely e-mailed but did not post on my website, led to a surge of mail. Responses to the first appear to indicate that Yes, many folks do want person-to-person real communication. Responses to the second suggest that people who are interested in hearing views contrary to the Zionist portrayal of the Nazi anti-Jewish Holocaust may be fearful of being publicly identified and/or having their privacy breached. I'll try to reply, beginning with the e-mail stimulated by my message of 2009-11-11 titled "Circles of trust for communication — an idea for REAL communication".
            0. Jeffrey Blankfort
            1. Tadit Anderson
            2. Nancy English
            3. Fred Nagle
            4. Rod Stackelberg
            5. Ruth & Bruce Graves
            6. Antonio García García
            7. Castaneda Jose (BetP/TEF)
            8. Tadit Anderson
            9. Curtis Muhammad
            10. Jerome _______
            11. Guillermo Monteforte
            12. Kevin Bailey O'Brien
            13. Magical Marty
The following twelve folks responded to my e-mail of 2009-11-14 titled "Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States." In contrast to the above thirteen (with Magical Marty added) all the next twelve (Cobain wrote twice) were initially unknown to me.
            1. Hal Womack
            2. Jessica Irving
            3. Stacey Decker
            4. David Cobain
            5. William 'Chip' Lamb
            6. Tom Hartman
            7. James Damon
            8. Michael E. Badgett
            9. Daryle Lamont Jenkins (<>)
            10. Travis _______ at SE
            11. David Cobain (further comment)
            12. David M Adkturn
            13. Barbara Gravesen
Both the next two I had had prior contact with:
            14. Louis Urban Kohler
            15. Nancy English Vinal (Watcher)

      My hope is to stimulate discussion among us in order to build trust and deeper understanding of the challenges we face so that we will be able to act cooperatively and effectively in contributing to altering the course of history for our mutual benefit. I will include the e-mail addresses of each of you in a format that will enable you to correspond directly with one another if you wish, but that doesn't allow them to be harvested (a euphemism for stolen) by spam operations. [4] Open public communication with no censorship is my goal!

0. Jeffrey Blankfort [5]
      The response from Jeffrey was to my [noaap] announcement on 2009-10-31 titled "From the Heartand, USA (Columbus, Ohio), with hate" which is at His note, without the heading, which I failed to save, follows:

Hi George
      I have long ago decided to pay no attention to Kevin McDonald because he carries arguments that may have some merit so far over the edge as to be ridiculous. I do, however, observe that when Jews come together, collectively, when the tribal suppresses the human, as in the case of Zionism or the Jewish establishments in every country where Jews exist, their actions are detrimental to the greater good of the larger community. That French colonel who after the French Revolution said, in effect, that for individual Jews as citizens, every thing, but as Jews nothing, was on to something. Hillaire Belloc wrote a book in the early 20s, entitled "The Jews," in which his criticism of what he describes as the Jewish character applies to what is nothing less than the horribly ugly face of organized American, British, French and South African Jewry today. Jews who see themselves primarily as part of the larger society in which they live have been, from my observance, qualitatively different, from those who see themselves as Jews first, and their contributions to humankind, in general, have been significantly different, as well. Today, the organized Jewish community worldwide is nothing but a collection of warmongers and racists, ready to send some other mothers' sons to far off battlefields to die. This may be the result of having things "too good" as the result of their ability to manipulate and abuse the memory of the Jewish holocaust. What is mistakenly referred to as "anti-semitism," becomes, understandably, if unfortunately, a predictable response.
      As far as Jewish intelligence goes, I was brought up with the notion that because Jews had historically been forced to move from one place to another, that what one carried in one's brains was much to be valued. When I went to Israel the first time I concluded that this was true because living among nothing but their fellow Jews and with nothing to fear--the Palestinians being invisible--Jews proved to be just as stupid as everyone else.
Best, Jeff
Subject: Re: [noaap] From the Heartand, USA (Columbus, Ohio), with hate
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 06:06:06 -0600
To: Jeffrey Blankfort <>
CC: Tadit Anderson <>

Hi Jeff,
      Your comments are always very interesting. This was true even in the past when I was at times in disagreement, I now think because I just wasn't knowledgeable enough at the time. As it happens, a guy in Texas had responded to my posting yesterday, reminding me of, among other things, your essay that I had put up as "Damage Control: Noam Chomsky and the Israel-Palestine Conflict" at and last night when your note arrived, I was working to clean up that file by putting in the proper html tags so that it could be read easily on a modern browser. Now I've finished that tedious chore and after I get some sleep I want to read your essay carefully, which I realize I hadn't ever done. There was also an interesting note from Tadit Anderson , who lives in Columbus, Ohio and is making me rethink my effort to get the word out to "the heartland" via Susie Purtee's "The Patriot Dames Radio Show".
So, it's still a struggle.
Best, George
Subject: On criticism of Noam Chomsky's role in the Palestine-Israel conflict
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:21:36 -0600
To: Jeffrey Blankfort <>
CC: Norman G. Finkelstein <>, Noam Chomsky <>, Ken Smith <>

Hi Jeff,
      Three weeks slipped by since my initial response to your comments, despite my intentions to get back to you regarding your long paper "Damage Control: Noam Chomsky and the Israel-Palestine Conflict." As promised, I did read it carefully, all 51 pages (21,294 words, 152.705 KB), and marked a second copy to indicate parts on which I thought I would comment. It impressed me as a very careful essay, thoroughly footnoted with references. The only question I had was whether you were unfairly harsh in your assumption that Chomsky acted deviously, i.e. posing as though he was acting in an impartial way when in reality he knew he was protecting Israel by deflecting warranted condemnation of Israel to the United States. You wrote:

What is less generally known is that he admits to having been a Zionist from childhood, by one of the earlier definitions of the term — in favor of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and a bi-national, not a Jewish state — and, as he wrote 30 years ago, "perhaps this personal history distorts my perspective." Measuring the degree to which it has done so is critical to understanding puzzling positions he has taken in response to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

I don't know your basis for assuming that his having been indoctrinated with a variety of Zionism when much younger is something about him that "is less generally known" than his voluminous documentation of Zionist Israeli criminality. As a latecomer to these issues I was quite aware of his background, as he himself has revealed it in published material. So, before responding to your note of (either Oct 31 or Nov 1, 2009 - I lost the heading) I wanted to reread James Peck's Introduction and his Interview in the volume, The Chomsky Reader, which I had read some years ago cover to cover, including all the footnotes and endnotes. My recollection was reinforced, because it has a ring of openness and candor about his own early development. I do not object to your effort to psychoanalyze some of his behavior. He is human, as we all are, and subject to the same efforts of all of us -- each trying to rationalize his or her own behavior. However, it took some time to reread that material, especially because so much else was happening here, and so the time went by.
      I think that where you criticize his waffling on the campaign for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions you are absolutely correct. His rationalization that criticism should be directed at the United States rather than at both the U.S. and Israel is nonsensical. They both deserve condemnation. But as I commented in a note to a British comrade yesterday, I think Chomsky is a good person. The exchange was

Subject: Finkelstein
From: Ken Smith <>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:10:07 -0600

Hi George,
      Here's a link to a nine-minute interview with Norman Finkelstein on Danish television. There is a short intro in Danish, with the interview in English.
Paz, Ken
Subject: Finkelstein interview is extremely good. Many thanks.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:14:05 -0600
CC: Norman G. Finkelstein <>, Noam Chomsky <>

Hi Ken,
      I don't agree with Finkelstein. His logic is incredibly good, dispassionate -- but starting from the assumption that "international law" is legitimate. I believe it is not possible for it to be legitimate, because it is based on the power structure of nation states, and of course always ultimately acquiesces to the desires of the most powerful socio-political forces. The UN is itself illegitimate, as is the International Court of Justice (so-called). But I've got to give Finkelstein a ton of credit. He argues within the framework to which all his adversaries falsely claim to adhere. He's head and shoulders above Chomsky when it comes to pure logic, uninfluenced (as Chomsky is not) by his ideological stance. It's just not my framework. But I've learned a great deal from each of them -- two good people.
Best, George

Subject: Re: On criticism of Noam Chomsky's role in the Palestine-Israel conflict
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:15:06 -0500 (EST)
CC: Norman G. Finkelstein <>, Noam Chomsky <>, Ken Smith <>, Norman G. Finkelstein<>

Dear George, I wrote that Prof. Chomsky's earlier affiliations with Zionism were less widely known because while he wrote of them in an earlier book, as well as his fear, in 1967, that Israel would be destroyed by Arab armies, I did not find any further reference in his later works (in which,admittedly, they might have appeared superfluous) and from my experience with fans of his who were not aware of his family history. Chomsky, as far as I know, is still a Zionist, having earlier written that Zionism had changed, he hadn't. But what other conclusion can one draw from his fear, also expressed earlier, that should there be a single state (as opposed to being bi-national), Jews would soon become a minority and be subjected to the will of the Muslim majority, a fear which he has in common with mainstream Zionists today.
      I remain puzzled why, given the more overt demonstrations of the Zionist lobby's power in the repeated humbling of an obviously spineless Barack Obama, he continues to ignore its pernicious role in American politics. It is a sad commentary that readers of Chomsky or those who attend his lectures are no more likely to understand what is happening with regard to the Israel-Palestine conflict than a reader of the NY Times. Both ignored, as did the entire mainstream media, with the exception of a Washington Post blog, that before Obama met with Netanyahu and after he had postponed that meeting because of Netanyahu's refusal to freeze settlement construction, 76 US senators and 329 members of Congress sent letters to Obama that had been drafted by AIPAC, as revealed by the WPost blogger, advising Obama not to pressure Netanyahu or Israel in any way and neither mentioned the settlements or indicated support for a two state solution.
      Both Chomsky and the mainstream media neglected to tell their respective audiences that Obama was further undermined when during the Congressional recess, 55 members of the House, 30 Democrats, including Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, and 25 Republicans went to Jerusalem where they met with Netanyahu and both groups gave press conferences in which they took the side of the Israeli PM against their own president. Perhaps Chomsky believes that was insignificant, as he obviously considered a similar press conference held in Jerusalem in 1998, when then influential House Democrat, Dick Gephardt, spoke at a press conference denouncing Bill Clinton's efforts to get Netanyahu, who was then PM, as well, to give up more West Bank land which led Clinton to back off. That was publicized, at least, in the LA Times, but ignored by Chomsky as well as those in the solidarity movement who seek his guidance on this critical issue.
      Had I written my article today, I would have provided more details on how very wrong Chomsky has been in his argument that US support for Israel has been based on it having been perceived as a strategic asset going back to Harry Truman. I don't have the time or should it be necessary to go back and show that from the beginning, the State Department as well as Defense (then appropriately call the War Dept.) viewed Israel as a strategic liability which gradually transformed itself into a troublesome burden that for domestic reasons, that is the power of the Zionist lobby and the organized Jewish community, needed to be placated and could not be removed. The two presidents that openly challenged it, Carter and Bush Sr., ended up, as one-term presidents. You won't find that out, however, by reading Chomsky. He portrays them both as members of Israel's fan club.
      Now, what I see is a troublesome connection between Chomsky's a) refusal to acknowledge the power of the Zionist establishment, misnamed "the lobby," b) his acceptance and promulgation of that establishment's position that US support for Israel is primarily based on it being a strategic asset in the region, what Chomsky used to call, America's "policeman on the block." and c) his oppostion to the Palestinian-initiated boycott, divestment and sanctions movement that is directed against Israel and it's economy, as opposed to the more tepid boycott of US companies that do business with Israel. I should add d) his being among the first to criticize Mearsheimer and Walt for their breakthough book on the lobby. Regarding (b) the available history as well as declassified White House and State Department documents tell a far different story.
      Why does Chomsky not recognize this? It is probably that like those on the left who for years had pretended the Soviet Union was something other than what it was, he has a vested interest in maintaining the fiction that AIPAC and its cronies only appear to be powerful because they are supporting US policy. That's simply not true and anyone who has taken the time to investigate this issue is aware of that. Add to that is the difficulty of any prominent public figure admitting that he or she was wrong for their stand on an issue with which they had been publicly associated. The only such person I recall doing so was Susan Sontag who, at a meeting with students in Rome, admitted she had been wrong in supporting the US bombing of Yugoslavia. She had been in Sarjaevo when it was under attack and that prevented her, she said, from seeing the larger picture. I don't recall, however, that she wrote anything about it.
      At the time my article was published Prof. Chomsky wrote to some of his followers that he would not read it, which I thought to be a strange, anti-intellectual if you will, response. To another fan, he wrote that I was "crazy" and "obsessed" with him. I'll let you be the judge of that. Twice, in 1991, after he and I had an exchange in the old National Guardian, and then, before my article, a NY friend, Ron Bleir, tried to arrange a debate on the issue of "the lobby" between the two of us, but Chomsky wasn't interested, writing the first time, "that it wouldn't be useful." I think you and others might disagree with that. I always stand ready and willing to debate him or anyone else on this issue. The only one who had done that so far is Stephen Zunes whose position is identical to that of Chomsky. All the best, Jeff

1. Tadit Anderson [6]
      Tadit's first note, concise as usual, is in Note 6. That started it.
Subject: Re: [noaap] From the Heartand, USA (Columbus,Ohio), with hate
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 11:38:26 -0600
To: Tadit Anderson <>
CC: Susie Purtee <>, Keith Marschall <>
      Hello Tadit, Thanks very much for writing. My contacts in Columbus are Susie Purtee and Keith Marschall, who have very generously welcomed me to participate in their weekly on-line radio show, The Patriot Dames Radio Show, at even though my ideological stance is very largely opposed to theirs. They are Ra! Ra! America, seeing most (if not practically all) of the bad things the government is relentlessly pursuing as being due to "the Jews". In my opinion, they are far from being entirely wrong in focuussing on the nefarious network of Zionists who are influential in the U.S. and elsewhere. Of course many of them (i.e. their targets) are identifiably Jewish, though there are many non-Jewish neocons who support the joint U.S.-Zionist project of conquest.
      What Susie and Keith are unwilling to come to grips with is that the ideology of capitalism: greed, power, conquest, the need for wars and mass murder, etc. is totally independent of ethnicity. They seem to believe that if the world's 15 or so million identifiable Jews could be isolated -- say deported to Madagasgar -- then everything would be OK and civilization (Western style) would flourish. In brief, they refuse (so far) to think about the structural apparatus that now largely controls the world's resources and peoples. Of course their program attracts the attention of out-and-out haters, overt Nazis who adore Hitler's "Aryan purity", a host of would-be "White people" who believe they are under attack by the apparatus of "the Jews". My view is that these folks are grossly misinformed about the true sources of the problems. The problems are of course real, but many of Susie and Keith's audience (and Susie and Keith themselves) are so brainwashed by ruling-class propaganda that they are in the dark about the real causes. It's a tough case to argue convincingly because in fact Jewish (and Jewish-allied) control of most of the public discourse is terrifyingly real. Obama isn't kissing Jewish ass for fun. At any rate, that's what I'm about these days. Best wishes, George
P.S. Would it be OK for me to post this note to my Notes of an anarchist physicist [noaap] site?
Subject: Re: [noaap] From the Heartand, USA (Columbus, Ohio), with hate
From: Tadit Anderson
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:41:53 -0400
George, Are you sure that the program is broadcast in Columbus Ohio? I looked a bit more closely at the linked material and it looks like the program is out of the Pittsburgh, Pa. area. I can still refer you to the WCRS crowd here who at least occupy a frequency for broadcast though there may be a need for a particular show to be interested. Tadit.
Subject: Followup on your last note
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:15:18 -0600
To: Tadit Anderson <>
CC: Gordon Arnaut <>, John Spritzler <>, Susie Purtee <>, Keith Marschall <>, Manuel Garcia <>

Oaxaca, Mexico, Wednesday 4 November 2009
      Hi Tadit, I'm sure that the studio where Susie Purtee does her The Patriot Dames Radio Show is physically located in Columbus, Ohio where she lives. But where the internet service provider is I do not know. They are changing their ISP (seems to be an ever-recurring process) to one that is full of Nazi iconography. I'll have to read your explanation of the broadcast situation in Columbus carefully if I'm going to understand it. In the meantime, an intense discussion has been going on among a few of the folks in what I call my Small Circle of Trust. I simply can't keep up with everything. At the end of this e-mail is the latest note from my very good and trusted friend Gordon Arnaut, a Canadian farmer of Serbian origin whose entire extended family was murdered by the Croatian Nazis. He's got no use for the Ra! Ra! America crowd that Susie's program attracts with her pro-White German sympathetic guests who have no compassion for non-Whites (whether "aliens" or not). Best wishes, George
Subject: From (Columbus, Ohio), with hate
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 15:02:36 -0400
      George, Now I understand you have inadvertently been sucked into the morass that is Columbus, Ohio. There are two groups in town who have a very uneasy relationship relative to the low power FM frequencies that they share. One group the smaller of the two is based out of Bexley, which is sort of an urban suburb, and home to Capital University and the highest concentration of right wing political Judaism and Catholicism in central Ohio. As a point of comparison I would place them as fairly mainstream corporatists, and all that that implies. And then there is the larger group which actually uses more airtime on those frequencies, Simply Living. They are adequately described as alternative corporatists, a'la Stanley Diamond's epilogue to "In Search of the Primitive." He describes our culture as generally oscillating between these two different types of corporatism. As an explanation it works very well to explain a lot of problems, such as the pronounced penchant for espousing "liberal" political values but operating within corporatist organizational processes. Simply Living is in my opinion more about branding everything they touch to build their reputation and credibility. The mission of the low power FM movement is supposed to be about serving the needs of the community, rather than using that utility to serve the interest of that organization. They also have their collective hooks into the larger of the two food cooperatives as a base for promoting their liberal form of fascism. While your material would probably be better received through WCRS( W Community Radio Simply Living), it would be exploited to advance the corporate interests of SL. Columbus's left scene is very factionalized in part due to different versions of the liberalized fascism, including a lot of celebrity politics. I am allied with a group that sort of operates between those sorts of spaces, though often nominally anarchist. A few of us have gathered around a process which can be described as Re-Imagining Economics (please, visit and spread the link as you see fit). We are constantly fighting for resources and visibility as a different mode of operating, toward more of an open source problem solving process, and a lot of people just don't get it. I expect that the crew you are dealing with will attempt to box you into a space that will serve their agenda, though given the great distance ideologically between you and them, I'd guess that they are having trouble connecting with much of anyone. I could connect you onto the WCRS crowd, there are a few people there who seem to have some consciousness above low wattage. They feature Democracy Now for instance. I expect that the admin types there would want to tiptoe around the state of Israel related issues You have my permission to use whatever. Thanks for all that you do, Tadit
[There's more correspondence with Tadit. I'll be adding some of it.]

2. Nancy English
Subject: Love it! The "Hawala" of communications! --N
From: Nancy English Vinal <>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:11:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Love it! The "Hawala" of communications! --N
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 12:27:53 -0600
Oaxaca, Mexico, Sunday 6 November 2009
Dear Nancy English Vinal,
      Your memory must be a lot better than mine. I couldn't place you, though it was obvious you were responding to my e-mail about REAL COMMUNICATION, not about Zionist efforts to censor open public discussion regarding Israel. A search for Nancy English got me the following:
    Subject: A letter from a "fellow traveler"
    Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
    Subject: Re: The struggle in Oaxaca, Mexico
    Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
    Subject: Re: The struggle in ALL of Mexico
    Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 14:49:25 -0700 (PDT)
and, if I remember correctly,
    Subject: Love it! The "Hawala" of communications! --N
    Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:11:37 -0800 (PST)
      I got many responses to those two mailings, the one of 11 Nov and that of 14 Nov, and because the second was more of an "emergency", I tried to respond to the folks who wrote me about that one right away. I must tell you that I had no idea what "Hawala" meant. One of the Google sites,, gives a revealing definition -- revealing of the pervasive distrust embedded in the value system of so-called Western Civilization.
      * S: (n) hawala (an underground banking system based on trust whereby money can be made available internationally without actually moving it or leaving a record of the transaction) "terrorists make extensive use of hawala"
      A less biased definition at, gives
Hawala (also known as hundi) is an informal value transfer system based on the performance and honor of a huge network of money brokers, which are primarily located in the Middle East, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and South Asia.
      Yes, from rereading our earlier correspondence I see that we were, and are kindred spirits. All best wishes, George
[The above note from Nancy was "immediately" after my 2009-11-11 post on "communications." She wrote again on 2009-11-26 about my 2009-11-14 post on "censorship." That exchange is number 15. in the second list (scroll way down to see it). Just below this is her response to my note just above.]
Subject: The "Hawala" of communications!
From: Watcher <>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 15:51:54 -0800 (PST)
That is IT!  Hawala... and the Hawala of communications would be "trust and values above greed" in transmitting information. In this world wouldn't that be a God send?
PS-- If you would rather that I just read and not make comments, I can do that. Didn't mean to intrude.
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 18:28:31 -0600
To: Nancy English Vinal <>
      It would be wonderful if we could trust one another. In fact, I believe we must change human culture to become one of mutual trust if we are to have any hope of getting out of the deadly mess we're in. As always, I welcome comments -- I don't think of them as intrusions. George
3. Fred Nagle [7]
      I've come to know Fred as a tireless worker for justice and decency over a number of years. He's one of the very active members of the Mideast Crisis Response (MECR) group in the Hudson Valley region centered about 50 miles north of New York City - the so-called Mid-Hudson Region. The group's meetings are held at the Woodstock Public Library. A U.S. Vietnam era Vet (he served in Korea for a year), Fred is a filmmaker and political activist. Typical of the many e-mails I get from him is one which began
Subject: Local visitor to West Bank publishes article in Times Union
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 13:05:13 -0400
From: Fred Nagel <>
      Paul has recently returned from Hebron with a powerful story. I have included it below. He will be speaking at the UU [Unitarian Universalist meeting] in Saugerties on July 8th (Saugerties Senior Center, 207 Market St., Saugerties). He is also available for other speaking events. Please contact him at: Paul Rehm <>.
Speak out to protect the children
By Paul Rehm, First published: Saturday, June 28, 2008
      They come in the middle of the night, some with blackened faces. They prefer the darkness, these men and women who take food and clothing meant for orphans and needy families.
      Shortly after midnight on April 30, these Israeli soldiers drove through the streets of Hebron to raid the sewing workshop in a Palestinian girls orphanage. Taken by surprise when my Christian Peacemaker teammates found them there, they would not answer Art's challenge, "Is this the way you fight terror -- stealing clothing and sewing machines from a girls' orphanage?"
      "Look at yourselves. Now tell me who the terrorists are." . . .
      Because of my trust in Fred and his groups, when he wrote about a couple of fundraising events, one for the schoolchildren of Larreynaga, Nicaragua and one for bringing supplies for children and families to Gaza in December, I sent a check and wrote, "Please contribute half to each of the two group's efforts. If you can do so in a manner that allows you to take deductions from your federal taxes, by all means do so. That helps divert money away from government and corporate control." A few days later I got a reply,
Subject: Re: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: Fred Nagel <>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:05:06 -0500
      I got your check today and will deposit it tomorrow. Both groups are thrilled. I would like to thank you by name, but wasn't sure if you prefer to remain anonymous. I will keep you up to date on what the money is spent on. We are leaning towards a small library of Spanish language books for the high school in Larreynaga. Thanks again for your wonderful generosity. Fred
Subject: Fred's bio
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 15:44:17 -0500
George, Nice talking to you today!
      Hope this is OK: [Some of the info Fred supplied is in Note 7. at the end of the posting.] . . . A resident of Rhinebeck, NY, he also creates webpages, blogs, and YouTube videos.
      Keep in touch, and I will let you know what is done with your generous gifts.
Subject: On my donations for your Palestinian and Nicaraguan projects
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 10:10:24 -0600
Dear Fred,
      It was good talking Wednesday evening and learning that you will be a member of the MECR delegation traveling to Egypt and (hopefully) Gaza later this month. And to hear that the thirteen from MECR will be part of over a thousand Americans making up the total delegation. I hope a great deal of information about the desperate situation of the Gazans is widely publicized as a result.
      As for naming me, as I said, I would prefer not to be anonymous. The reason is that I think the example of someone without very much wealth going beyond so-called "charitable contributions" might inspire other privileged people to consider giving up their material advantage (or at least a good part of it) in order to really participate in closing the great gap that separates us, the world's privileged, from its overwhelming majority of pillaged. Although my donation may be large compared to the others, it is less than the money each of the thousand-odd delegates is spending to make the trip and be a participant. My point is simply that we who collectively have legal control over much of the world's disposable wealth ought to consider whether, for example, an expensive trip we contemplate making is justified in terms of the social good it provides. I think that this huge delegation to Palestine meets that criterion, and of course I want you all to be very successful as political activists.
All the best, George
4. Rod Stackelberg
      Rod and I have been in infrequent contact for several years. He wrote me almost four years ago (and evidentally earlier):
Subject: Re: Saddam uses Bush's defense
From: Rod Stackelberg <>
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:41:46 -0800
      Thanks for the nice note, George. You actually thanked me in an earlier note as well. Your strictures are well-taken. I am very aware that I'm more apt to interpret the world than to change it, although I certainly would love to see it change. The internet does make activism rather too easy by deluding one into thinking one is changing the world just by spreading information! Not that that isn't important as well. Lenin's old question, "What is to be done?" remains, and there is no easy answer.
      My connection to Dan [Hughes, who is an American mathematician, an expatriate living in Italy] is through my brother Olaf who used to be chair of the Math Dept at Kent State, but is now, like the rest of us (I think), retired. I am emeritus prof of history at Gonzaga University, a Jesuit school in Spokane, WA, and the youngster in the crowd (I'll be 71 in May).
Best regards, Rod
      Shortly after my e-mail, Rod replied
Subject: Circle of Trust
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:42:56 -0800
      George, I would be honored to be included in your Circle of Trust.
      You may be interested in my blog on which I am writing my memoirs. Nine segments have been published up to 1967.
Best regards, Rod
Subject: Response, a month later
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:51:00 -0600
To: Rod Stackelberg <>
Oaxaca, Mexico, Friday 11 December 2009
Hi Rod,
      Believe it or not I'm still working to post the responses (and subsequent exchanges) I got from the two e-mails I sent out -- on 11 Nov and 14 Nov. Since the second message seemed more urgent, judging from some of the responses, I dealt first with that group and then turned to the 11 Nov group, which included you. My attempt to go to the URL you gave consistently failed [He had rod instead of roderick. Antonio García García, another correspondent, 6. on this list discovered it and wrote me].
      I appreciate your thought about being included in my so-called Circle of Trust. And of course I'm glad that you trust me and generally think well of my judgment. But truly my hope with that message was that you and other folks would become motivated to start your own Circles of Trust. I can assure you that it takes a lot of effort, at least in the way I'm trying to go about it, and whether it will be effective on a scale that can be socially significant is not even clear. But with those contacts who become mutual trusted friends it is a very satisfying experience. I rather doubt that it's possible to build relationships of solid mutual trust without putting in a lot of effort. Of course I'll always be interested to hear from you and to know what you think. All best wishes, George
Subject: Re: Response, a month later
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:31:44 -0800
      Hi George, and thanks for the nice message. I continue to follow your postings with great interest and admiration. My own website, such as it is, can be found at . I use the longer version of my name, because that is the name under which my books are published. As I may have told you, I am currently engaged (at the urging of my family) in publishing my "memoirs" as a blog. I was up to chapter 10, but then in late November, my website crashed and the data base was lost (my website host thinks it may have been hacked, but then again he needs a good excuse to explain why he didn't have it sufficiently backed up and secured, which is after all what I pay him for). So now I'm engaged in resurrecting my memoirs. Currently only chapter 10 is posted, covering the exciting years of 1967-1968, when I was teaching high school in Vermont. The first nine segments, if I do repost them (I am revising as I go, and thinking of publishing them as a separate volume covering my childhood and youth from 1935 to 1967), will appear out of sequence.
      Your efforts to build a Circle of Trust are very much worthy of support, and I feel honored to be included. Whether I deserve to be it is another matter. I am not the activist that you are, but I do feel as strongly about the major issues as you do, especially about the permanent war, and for that reason take great delight in reading your commentary. Your radicalism is like a gust of fresh air! Keep up the good work.
Best regards, Rod
5. Ruth & Bruce Graves
      I've been in intermittent contact with Bruce Graves for some years. It appears to me that he has suffered unjust treatment of a serious nature at Eastern Michigan University, where he was a tenured professor of chemistry until his appointment was terminated by questionable actions of the University administration. Bruce responded to my 11 November posting as follows:
From: Ruth & Bruce Graves <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 01:41:37 -0500
Dear George S. - From Bruce Graves, again, ca., 1:02 AM, Thursday, 11122009
      I would love to be one you trust. Is this e-mail address at umb one that fits that category, #1? You can probably not keep up with the number of people in that list [2615].
      I empathize with the need to avoid feeling isolated. The whole thing about my being illegally fired from Eastern Michigan University [EMU] rendering me permanently unemployable since 1982 and getting kicked out of the Ann Arbor Quakers from an EMU connection has made the whole Ann Arbor community of former associates and so-called friends here isolate me with a false myth/belief structure invented by the EMU psychologist Petrella. This false belief structure claims I am mentally ill, subscribed to by even my wife, but totally false. It is an issue of context differences between "the public" and the "singled out victim". It is a mentality of bigotry like racism.
      I am about to write an analysis of how this situation evolved from Hitler. My wife is a Holocaust Survivor. Many Jews who came out of that situation were/are desperate to lead lives that are "normal" and it seems go to great lengths to cultivate friendships taking precedence over family relationships. Primo Levi once said that Hitler committed "massive child abuse", so I think that one can regard many who came over here as children as suffering the long term effects of child abuse. This relates to the need to be liked by many friends. The problem in this specific situation was that my wife trusted and tried to please David Bassett [see the blog] and was thus vulnerable to his false notions that I was ill rather than defending me to him and getting the Friends Meeting to come to my defense rather than support Bassett. He needed no defense but was one bordering on psychopathology to build his own public image - Bassett being much loved in the Ann Arbor Friends Meeting while I was not, partly in coming from Ypsilanti, a place somewhat looked down upon by people in Ann Arbor - a prejudice if you will.
      So I use e-mail to "stay alive", so to speak, as well. I am fortunate to have contact with my teen grandsons this way who write me frequently every few days and some local ones come over for "sleepovers". I write back as often, of course. They are much into sports which is good - basketball and soccer.
      You probably already know my blog which I would love to have more widely known with comments encouraged to be written there:
      When I meet people and they ask how I am, I usually say: "Still alive". But people rarely have the faintest notion of what that means and only smile. One waiter at a hotel in Salt Lake City said to me in response to that one morning at breakfast: "How very observant."
      So let me know if I should be in a different list - maybe 3-3?
      I am about to lose my driving license for mistakes the State of Michigan made recently, not me.
      Warmest regards and thanks for your friendly and informative messages. Feel free to share my messages with others. --Bruce Graves
Subject: A few words
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:48:28 -0600
To: Bruce Graves <>
Hi Bruce,
      I'm naturally inclined to be skeptical of pronouncements by so-called professional (i.e. hired) psychologists about the psychological condition of other people, especially if they are being paid by a third party who stands to benefit from an "analysis" that damages someone like you for the advantage of the third party. It seemed pretty clear to me when I first heard from you some years ago that some people in the EMU administration wanted to get rid of you, though I don't remember any details. And now it looks as though Petrella has done what they want, in effect declared you to be "off your rocker."
      In my opinion it's always better to avoid trying to psychologize people with whom one is in conflict if the motivation is to let oneself off the hook and to hang blame on the other party. That's what the Zionist supporters do to "the Arabs". That's what part of the crowd attracted to Susie Purtee's radio show (The Patriot Dames) in Columbus Ohio does to "the Jews". I would be inclined to think that your warm relationships with your teenage grandsons is a good sign of your true mental state. Young people are usually pretty shrewd knowing if someone is "loopy" - without professional analysis - and tend to keep their distance from such characters. The fact is that in a highly competitive society many people feel insecure about their personal status -- worry about what other people may think of them. I see this as a very unhealthy aspect of U.S. society. And of most so-called "Western societies." A good friend who's not taken in by all the false values the U.S. obeys is Joe Bageant. He's got a lengthy, first rate essay, The Devil and Mr. Obama that I recommend, at It's Joe telling it like he sees it, and he sees it pretty straight. It's also posted on Counterpunch at I'm glad to have you on my Notes of an Anarchist Physicist listserv.
All good wishes, George
Subject: A few more words
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 01:43:27 -0500
Dear George S. - From Bruce G., ca., 1:03 AM, Monday, 12-21-2009
      I have been a bit swamped of late as usual but wanted to write back sooner than sometimes to express my great appreciation for your friendly note of December 12.
      However, before I write a more detailed addition regarding my latest travails [e.g., I lost my driving license due on the surface to mistakes in the Michigan bureaucacy regarding my vision which is OK by even the documented state vision tests], I ran across this Topica list with your name for one note related to conscientious objection to taxes for war. Mostly, I either was not aware of your interest in this subject or just forgot.
      Actually, I am trying to find a ca., 50-page legal brief Ruth and I wrote in a war tax appeal back in the '70's [probably 6th circuit] that ought to be brought out and put on the web somewhere. We had one other case among several that went to the US Supreme Court., but it was denied on a writ of certiorari. It did get a lot of news coverage at the time. I remember when the phone started ringing off the hook at 7 AM the day the SupCt. announced some decisions, one being our denial. I have somewhere a stack of 8-page pamphlets having reprints in tiny fonts of all the news coverage I was then aware of including some personal interviews by local newspapers - they still existed then!!
      But the 50-page brief [not the Sup. Ct. one] is a most valuable legal document for wider education of the public. I probably have a paper reprint somewhere, but thought it might be easier to find these days with Google or Bing. So far, only one decision has been found, not my brief, but I just started. It was never digital as I typed it on a typewriter. I have no idea if the USTC [United States Tax Cases] has converted all its cases to digital on the web or not.
      Feel free to share all or parts of my comments here with others. It would be great if some of your contacts would know how to search for this brief. I am such a nerd, but not that kind.
      At the moment, I am focused on my local grandsons, the older one becoming 17 today and the younger one, 6 feet, 14 years, being totally absorbed in being "A Pioneer" - meaning he is on the basketball team at Pioneer HS in Ann Arbor and is real excited by the experience. They are nice guys and I feel honored that despite our being 80+ they still like to exchange frequent e-mails with me/us even though they are also very involved in "texting" with their friends on these tiny gadgets many kids have these days.
Warmest wishes, especially for your holiday season times, Bruce G.
6. Antonio García García
      Antonio was one of the early respondents to my post, but I didn't begin to answer him until a month later, on 12 December. Now it is two days later and I'm getting ready to write the second half of my answer -- by doing some preparatory translation of an article in last week's newspaper. [8] So I'll start this by just giving Antonio's letter, his first letter.
Subject: Re: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: Antonio García García <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:41:39 +0100
      There is that much to be sick of, George, and I'd be happy if all of it was merely commercial garbage. But as I told you in a previous message, what brings together the commercial stuff and the apparently non-commercial stuff is the fact that you get nothing for free. Even when it does cost nothing... you contribute in one way or another to generate revenue for someone. If it weren't so they would not offer the service in the first place. Facebook, schmacebook and similars... apparently free services, run on infrastructure that has to be paid for.
      REAL, person-to-person, non-automated contacts can only develop when there is mutual interest in a subject, and in our case I should say that they can only develop where individual top priorities are not personal struggle for survival because our commitment to collective survival and development put us on a not so common wavelength. If it is already difficult not to be on a personal survival tune, many more people are on a personal immediate pleasure tune, the carpe diem type, even if the pleasure level becomes only marginally above general shit. A lot of people simply refuse any kind of effort not immediately followed by some kind of real or psychological guaranteed reward.
      That does not leave that many persons worth really communicating with, unless you lower standards as to what it is really worth talking about. You get a great audience if you go as far as to discuss football results.
      George, adding people to a restricted trust group IS censorship and does not combine well with the stated aim of building global open communication. You immediately degrade everybody else to some human not as equal as some others.
      I am at least as convinced as you are that global, open communication is key to the survival of anybodies "save the world" strategy, It was already so back then when I contacted NarcoNews and you searching for a way to solve communications trouble with Subcomandante Marcos and the Zapatistas. The strategies and ideas I have developed over time to boost global open communication and strike a blow to big corporation mass media control are still taking dust in one of my drawers. The instruments are there... only there is not enough people out there who would use them to do the right thing. It is not only necessary to break down the big cartels... there must also be enough small fish wanting to do the right thing. Mind you, not necessarily MY right thing, but at least anarchist inspired stuff. To break down the big sharks that butcher the small fish only to see the small fish grow teeth and butcher one another is not my idea of progress.
      I keep looking around everywhere, and I still have to find a group with enough members and wits (or a way to have many of them work together) to get anything done on a scale that will really matter and take global balances into account as to have a certain control about the direction that our efforts lead us towards, against all odds.
      You are still on my very small list of interesting people.
Subject: Many thanks Antonio
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:46:57 -0600
To: Antonio García García <>
CC: Rod Stackelberg <>
Hi Antonio,
      I ended last night working on getting our exchange up on the page (you're No.6). But I didn't get to see how far back our contacts go. And they were not unduly frequent, if my memory isn't wrong. Anyway, I'll try to get a little more about you to post as an introduction for the others (and me). Then, fairly late at night your note popped in, namely
Subject: About Rod Stackelberg
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 20:15:20 +0100
Hi George,
      I read about your troubles accessing Rod Stackelberg's web at the address he gives in his mail. I don't know if it has been solved already, but just in case it hasn't... I have the same trouble, of course, and then I thought... why not try if Google knows better? So instead of putting the address in the browser's address bar I entered into Google's search bar a few centimeters to the right.
      Rod has inadvertently given the wrong web address, as Google's search results return on the first page some links to As the content matches what is mentioned in his email... bingo.

      Now I checked it, and it took a lot of discipline not to read Rod's entire Memoir: 10. The Irasburg Affair, which is at I'll go back for sure, but I've got to get my own page completed.
      Your response Antonio was . . . [it's above]

Your comments about nothing being truly "free" are clearly correct. Each of us lives somewhere within the existing global infrastructure, a good deal of which is directly supported by commercial operations. Though you and I don't like many of the arrangements we are essentially forced to conform to in order to live as we find to be acceptable -- for example to benefit from internet communications -- I think a reasonable position for us to assume is that we must do certain things we don't like in order to be able to work for the social transformation that is our goal -- to have a good life for all the world's people. Thus in today's world I must pay in money for my internet access. I detest the fact that the majority of the world's people cannot use this technology, but that does not lead me to reject its use. Obviously there are many choices we must make about what to accept, even grudgingly, and what to absolutely refuse to be a part of. It is for me sometimes a moral judgment, for example I condemn all deliberate, calculated killing of people.
      It's interesting that you think it's only possible for us (the two of us) to develop real contacts with individuals whose struggle for personal survival is not their top priority. Just this past week an essay by Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO) was published that exhibits a lot more confidence in the good solid sense of ordinary people even when they are hard pressed to survive. It reflects his experiences visiting all 570 municipos (the basic governing units, maybe akin to small counties) of the largely decentralized state of Oaxca. The last presidential election, on 2 July 2006, was stolen from AMLO by Felipe Calderon. I'm going to break this off temporarily because I want to read AMLO's article instead of just sketchily skimming it, so that I can present the ideas more accurately. I think they are important -- substantially different than yours -- and even though my impression is that AMLO somewht idealizes the situation in Oaxaca, I think there are significant truths that deserve being paid attention. If you want to look at the article (it's in Spanish), you can see it from links in endnote [8].
      I'll continue this letter, hopefully tomorrow.
All best wishes, George
Subject: Re: Many thanks Antonio
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:07:30 +0100
Dear George,
      Of course we have no alternative but live within the constraints of the world in its actual shape, and we would end up as completely isolated individuals if we insisted on the fact that not the slightest compromise is possible between the idealistic nirvana we nurture in our minds and unavoidable reality.
      Being as it is, simply impossible, to push any magic switch to shift actual chaos into absolute perfection at once, we have no choice but to act step by step and to tolerate coexistence with imperfection. Nevertheless, we should be able to analyse any kind of actual situation an develop the necessary actions to counter perceived evil and/or enhance perceived right in such a way that we minimize compromising our ethical framework in the process but nevertheless maximize our contribution towards the realization of changes we identify as positive or getting us closer to our ultimate goal of perfection.
      Our first contacts date back to the first months of 2006, when I contacted you and some others (NarcoNews) trying to establish discrete and reliable ways to solve a dispute that had arisen with the Zapatistas and that threatened to hurt their reputation if handled publicly. I did not succeed, and while I refrained from public action nevertheless, the trouble sealed the zapatista forums fate at I wrote them an email that was supposed to get all the way through to Subcomandante Marcos, and that never received an answer.
      I got interested by the zapatistas because they seemed a promising initiative, but after the problem that remained unresolved I resumed my quest in other directions. Their stuggle lacks universality because they have substituted autonomous logical coherence of the basic framework supporting their initiative by unexplained naturality of indigenous autonomic organization. What they seem unable to understand is that what makes those indigenous organizations sustainable is their inherent ingenuity and lack of malice that makes crime virtually inexistant. Simple disputes can be solved rationally by consensus and the lack of malice and competitivity makes those solutions acceptable. But malice, greed and competitivity do exist in the actual world since Mr. Adam simbolically bite the apple, and nothing gets solved by turning your back to this fact because you can't hide from external interference as long as externality exists.
      This is not only the achilles heel of indigenous instrumentalization, it contaminates any line of thought, be it communism, anarchism, etc. Nothing utopian can be organized if it does not include proper treatment of external agression, pressure, etc. Utopy might be the goal, but it can't be implemented at once in a world whose status you can not change immediately as if with a simple switch.
      I have read AMLO'S article, and I consider it mere electoral propaganda as is made clear by the following passage:
      "Por todo ello, considero que es posible el triunfo en las elecciones del año próximo. Desde luego, es indispensable convocar a todos los hombres y mujeres de buena voluntad para consumar esta gesta cívica y poner mucha atención en la defensa del voto, teniendo en cuenta que en 2004 inventaron 80 mil sufragios para imponer a Ulises Ruiz. La trayectoria de este personaje lo dice todo: su carrera la ha dedicado a realizar fraudes electorales por todo México.
      "A pesar de las grandes dificultades que habrá que enfrentar, mi pronóstico es que triunfará la democracia en Oaxaca. Su pueblo está decidido a establecer un gobierno de mujeres y hombres honrados y de buenos sentimientos, que no tenga como objetivo la venganza, sino la justicia. Asimismo, considero que es indispensable aplicar un programa para impulsar las actividades productivas porque hay mucho potencial para aumentar la producción y crear empleos. Por ejemplo, es inaceptable que, debido al abandono gubernamental, en los municipios de Santa María y San Miguel Chimalapa — de sólo 10 mil habitantes y con 580 mil hectáreas de tierras de primera, susceptibles de ser utilizadas para la agricultura de ciclo corto, para la ganadería y, sobre todo, para la producción de árboles maderables como el cedro y otras especies –, los jóvenes estén emigrando a Estados Unidos en busca de trabajo."
      My severe judgment is based on my own analysis of political systems and electoral processes, and not ideologically tainted. Neither does it rest, even if it does not ignore the facts, on the zapatista pot accusing the socialist kettle of being black or blacker. To put it simply, politics has been corrupted by the fact that electoral processes have been made more and more dependant of financial backing to pay for election campaigns. The longer politicians run in the electoral circus, the more they owe banks or their owners for the financing of past campaigns, and the more they need to cater to their demands if they want to see the next one financed. Thus, I have no faith, nor can I grow one, in any yet existing political formation or future one that include any person suspect of being held hostage by forces that do not foster the collective good. Only when people without previous loyalties other than the common good can come together and stage a campaign without the need of being financed by people with other loyalties than the common good... can intervention in the political circus serve the purpose of changing the system from within. Anything else gets coopted and or serves to spread FUD.
      AMLO plays the game, and its difficulty is that nobody can serve two masters simultaneously... the bankers for the money needed to run a succesfull campaign, and the peoples majority -in this case overwhelmingly indigenous- for the votes. The only way to remain faithful to the votes is not having to sell the soul for the money.
      There is one other major logic fault in leftist politics that also remains in anarchism through their main organizing body that is anarcho-syndicalism: Marx abuse of class definition as created in the context of the industrial revolution that gave birth to the proletariat. Marx short-circuited the need for an universal definition of class and instead adopted the one best suited to his immediate needs and the best exploitation of the present industrial revolution context. Catering for immediate results he pushed for a definition best suited for the moment but not universal. And the whole left and anarchism is suffering today the consequences of that opportunistic choice. Lumpen proletariat did not exist before the industrial revolution, and it increasingly ceases to exist in present times when factory workers own their own houses, even if slaves to the mortgage, have private pension schemes, and own shares of the multinationals that abuse most of them in ways they can't even imagine anymore...
      Well, I'll make a halt here, and I hope I'm not complicating your day too much.
      Keep up the good work.
Subject: Of course you're complicating my day, but I love it.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:50:47 -0600
CC: Nancy Davies <>
Hi Antonio,
      I began to revise the start of the entry for you (you're No 6.) on my post at when in popped your response to my note from last night. Clearly you read Spanish fluently. So I will discontinue my laborious effort translating AMLO's article. The core problem that we're both trying to address is "How can we best function in the constraints of contemporary society to instigate fundamental changes that will transform it into a humane global social order?" A bit like trying to paddle a canoe upstream through raging rapids that do their damnest to force everyone to go with the current.
      AMLO is of course, as you stress, playing the political game. In spite of that, I believe the value system that Guillermo Bonfil Batalla glorified (somewhat romantically in my opinion) in his inspiring though repetitious book, El México Profundo, una civilización negada, has impressed itself on AMLO during his campaign travels in Oaxaca these past months. As someone who lives here, so to speak "under the guns of the military porros" [porros are hired thugs and/or assassins], I know it would be a godsend if the PRI's 80 year control of Oaxaca ended next year. Most likely I will not conform to the anarchist dictate to not vote, and will participate, unfortunately not with any confidence that it will do any good. Of course I will not put any other effort into electoral politics.
      Where do you live? Your closing sentence "Lumpen proletariat did not exist before the industrial revolution, and it increasingly ceases to exist in present times when factory workers own their own houses, even if slaves to the mortgage, have private pension schemes, and own shares of the multinationals that abuse most of them in ways they can't even imagine anymore..." suggests it may be in the U.S. My sense is that U.S. factory workers (Marx's industrial proletariat) isn't particularly well off. Now I want to go back to working on bringing the post up to date. There are still folks to whom I've not yet written back. But I'm sure we'll continue. Any chance of you getting to Oaxaca?
All the best, George
P.S. I'm sharing this with Nancy, who's very much interested in the local struggle.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:32:16 +0100
      Of course I read Spanish fluently, I am a Spanish citizen. Not that Spaniards can not be analphabetes, I got proof in snail mail today when the letter from the official tourist office introducing a campaign to promote local wines came in with plenty of errors.
      Paddling a canoe upstream? You're kidding! That's peanuts.
      Like Archimedes used to say, "Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand, and I will move the world." Guess what? I'm smart enough to build the lever on my own, I do not need one given to me, but I'm still looking for a place to stand. And then, ultimately, I still have to be convinced of the fact that moving the world will do any good. I already mentioned the fact that I do not like small fish to grow teeth as soon as the big fish are not around anymore.
      I said Marx got it wrong with his definition of class. I do not know if he had a better but circumstantially less useful definition or if he was utterly ignorant about it. I've developed my own definition. It all boils down to one single fundamental choice everyone has to make individually and that shows itself sooner or later: facing the need for survival, would you rather rely only on yourself and do anything necessary to make sure YOU survive no matter what happens to anybody else or how much you endanger other people's survival, or would you rather work together with everybody to make as sure as possible that as many as possible survive, taking the risk of not being among their numbers? That is the real universal question Marx should have used to separate friend from foe. Instead, he focused his attention on a symptom: those that only think about themselves tend to secure possession of any resource they can lay their hands on. The confusion arises because there is no positive correlation between the individual choice and possession of wealth. People can be poor because they have had no opportunity to grab wealth, still eagerly awaiting the first opportunity; and people born in a wealthy environment can make the right choice even if acting accordingly does not have to seem obvious to everyone.
      Today's world is very confusing because those that choose to care only for themselves have accumulated a lot of everything. They have stripped anybody else of their humanity and degraded them to the status of mere resources they can exploit. At some point in time they swapped absolute survival, catering for one's physical needs, to relative survival, being as strong as possible, because they grew aware of the fact that the biggest threat was not another single individual trying to satisfy his absolute physical needs, but another individualist harvesting all resources he could get in order to be as strong as possible in order to resist the agression of any other individual developing the same logic.
      This is the point where, switching from finite absolute needs to infinite relative needs, the world's future blacked out. Because with this logic no matter how much was ever enough... and those predators sacrifice no matter what, ethics being the least of their troubles, to become and remain the most efficient collectors of resources ever.
      Competition has been merciless... politics, economy, finance, media, ... all the dirtiest tricks of the trades are applied mercilessly in the most efficient way, first to strip of their resources those that not aware of the competition are the easiest to rob, but ultimately also preparing for the moment that all innocent people have nothing left and they have no alternative but to fight each other.
      If we want to have a chance for survival, George, we must get aware of the mechanics at work here while we are still enough to halt that silly race their logical illness has trapped them into. And then we have to come with a master plan to deny them any more resources, taking our future in our own hands.
      The anarchist dictate not to vote is as opportunistic as Marx class definition. It is utopian in the sense that in a perfect anarchist society voting should be unnecessary, and also stupid and autistic because while we struggle to improve the situation, voting is one of the little things left we can use without violence. Of course, voting any of the existent parties is stupid, as they are indebted to capital, but we can build a new one bottom-up and find ways not to need capital to organize the campaigns (remember money is used to move people... if we have people, what do we need money for?). Latin America has gained some reputation using ethnicity as an argument to gather votes. Chavez in Venezuela (though also using petrodollars), Morales in Bolivia, ... but this are really poor substitutes for ethics, individual perception of right and wrong... especially if one can use a clear and concise definition of the right and wrong attitude instead of Marx misleading class divide that continues to do that much harm, so that everybody individually can judge who he can partner with and who not.
      Then we can start uprooting all the evil and wrong the sick have been interweaving in the carpet of the social fabric, taking care to play them carefully the one against the other, making sure not one of them can beat one of the others and sum their ressources to his in such a way as to be able to beat all the rest combined, while we gradually reduce the ressources any of them get until they get so little they are left harmless.
The political party system.
The monetary system.
The mammoth media . . .
      Think globally, George, act locally. Actually, I'm thinking globally from quite far away, southern Spain and not somewhere in the U.S. As for U.S. workers not being well off, I think the logic I describe a few lines up explains it all quite accurately.
      I do not harvest resources hard enough to have reserves with which to pay for a transatlantic flight or boat trip, George. Even if those resources were available, I would have to decide whether they could not be spent optimally otherwise than transporting me to Oaxaca. That would entirely depend on what I should be supposed to do once there and the chances of it achieving results that could be deemed relevant considering the sum involved.
      Of course, I do not need to be at any specific location to think globally, nor can I be everywhere to act locally, but I do not mind moving to any place where I might be able to act locally more usefully than anywhere else, and I have no strings whatsoever binding me to any particular place.
      Share anything you wish within your trust circle, George, but be aware that not everybody might be pleased to know we are plotting to radically change the world as they know it. Remember they are sick and react irrationally. If they feel reasonably threatened we might preventively end as company to JFK or John Lennon.
Best Regards. Antonio.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:02:30 -0600
CC: Nancy Davies
Hola Antonio,
      I just finished posting our exchange up through my last note today -- and it will be my last for today -- even though your response now popped in. I'll read it but delay responding. Do you have Skype? If so we can talk to one another without additional immediate money cost. My Skype name is georgesalzman
Saludos, George
From: Antonio García García
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:27:44 +0100
To: George Salzman <>
      I do not have Skype. In fact, I used to have a mobile phone at a time when the possibility of work depended heavily on the fact of being available at any time, but not anymore.
      I think communication can only be had two ways: immediateness without depth or detail, and depth and detail without immediateness. Of course, there is also the non-communication: non-immediateness without depth or detail.
      Nothing beats the printed word when it comes to depth and detail, and thus I do not like to be forced to use less optimal forms of communication. When you write things down, you can reread without limits, rethink, add, modify, rephrase,... and you can exchange and communicate with an awful lot of people simultaneously in a form of creative interaction. Any other form of communication limits the possibilities because it limits the audience that can benefit from one's thoughts, be it in numbers, be it restricting the time frame of availability, be it the time allowed to anyone to grasp and understand the meanings of content (rereading enhances comprehension and avoids memory failures). The written or printed word is also the one technically less dependant from technology dominated by highly capitalized conglomerates, and thus the enemy.
      Email needs only access to a free mail account and physical access to a simple computer in any cyberbar. I do not sympathize with the silly induced trend to embed heavy images, audio recordings and video (like the ubiquitous YouTube) in mails and webpages, that only tend to eliminate reflection and creative structure from communication. When you have something to say, you go through the trouble of structuring it the best way possible. All this is replaced by the simple capacity of pushing a button on a still or video camera, or voice recorder. Better still, you can be a perfect parrot forwarding links to recordings made by others, and yahooo... you don't even need to understand the content to flood everyones mail with links.
      I rarely view videos or listen to recordings... there is too much shit circulating and it takes too much time to discard each of them because there is no resume attached.
      The printed word is different. You can read any two pages of a publication and decide if the other 1.000 are worth attention. Or read 10 if necessary and the resume is not enough. You can multiply the printed word thousandfold with as little as access to an offset press, a flatbed 70x100cm one ink press is enough. Either you can rescue one from jubilation or help the nearest print shop survive. We should clearly make an effort in this sense before the only possible printed word becomes the mass-media mammoth press nonsense.
      Paper is versatile and resistant, and little dependant on additional technology, unlike radio, television, etc. that requires an reception set and access to electricity to be operational.
      One should not fight on terms that favor the enemy if one can avoid it.
      Think about it, George. Just now, you only need to copy-paste to add each of my writings to your page... why should you make things difficult by advocating synchronisation (both of us one at each end but necessarily at the same time) and introducing the need for you to synthesize and interprete the content of our exchanges, not to speak about the time needed to transcribe it in tidy English?
      The way your page advances, I would think time availability already is a big bottleneck to you.
7. Castañeda José (BetP/TEF)
Subject: RE: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: Castañeda José (BetP/TEF) <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 08:39:43 -0500
Hola George.
      I really think I am not in list 4 below. With the single message per year to send greetings, I am obviously not that active in the areas listed.
      But I do not miss the opportunity to say hello. Then, I also want to say that after all this time and even with the limited communications, I have realized that in some aspects of life you have become a role model for me.
      I am not that good at keeping in touch but I intend to go visit you in Oaxaca. Maybe in December, if you are around? In the meantime, please take care.
      Muchos saludos y abrazos. Sincerely, --Jose.
PD Could you please remind me of your contact information in Oaxaca? Most times, when I go to Mexico, I have limited access to email. In any case, I will make sure you are available before making plans.
Subject: A late, but I hope not too late response
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:35:08 -0600
Oaxaca, Mexico, Sunday 6 December 2009
Hi Jose,
      It will be wonderful to see you again after all these years. I think the last time was a fleeting chance encounter on Massachusetts Avenue in Cambridge when you were getting gas, on a trip with family members to Niagara Falls. I was walking home (to Laurel Street) from the Lucy Parsons Center and when I suddenly saw you I shouted Que milagro! It felt like a miracle. I should have written right back with the contact info but always got diverted. Too much going on here. Here it is . . . We have no travel plans -- whenever you come you will find us in the city. We've pretty much given up trying to travel. It's too difficult. Mostly we go for little walks in the central part of the city, where we live. In spite of all the repression, the Oaxaquenos are very spirited. A good place for us to live these twilight years.
      Esperando su viaje a Oaxaca con placer. Un abrazo fuerte. George
P.S. You're in my lists 1. and 2. Looking again at the 11 Nov e-mail with the four categories, there are of course people in all the lists that I totally trust. There are a good number of people who have come from well-to-do families, who pursued professional careers and who after some years became politically engaged. Most of course remain in the mind-set of the privileged classes.
8. Tadit Anderson (again) [see also 1.]
Subject: a bit more direct
From: Tadit Anderson <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:09:30 -0500
Hello George,
      To repeat but a bit more directly, I think that what you have is perhaps the basis for something larger than serving the needs of one person. There is a major importance in basic communication of alternative and non-corporate viewpoints. The underlying prospect is to model non-authoritarian systems toward a productive process, rather than re-investing in an adversarial or reactionary mode. This could be partly modeled on the open source process started within the computer programming community and also within the progressive management discourse. --Tadit
Subject: Re: a bit more direct - a delayed acknowledgment
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:04:04 -0600
Hi Tadit,
      My dreams are grandiose compared to what I seem able to accomplish. I would love to stimulate growth of a very diffuse, non-hierarchical communication network that embodies your ideas -- one oriented toward a productive cooperative non-competitive, non-adversarial mode. As things stand at the moment, my two e-mails (of 11 Nov and 14 Nov) generated over two dozen responses, which for me is quite a large number, but I don't know how many of the individuals have made use of the possible contacts with other respondents. I recall that you contacted Shawn Witham, the physics major at Kent State University who's involved with other students there in forming a "Guild of Progressive Physicists" (and which subsequently included non-physicists). Whether there are other such contacts ignited by my e-mails I don't know.
      In one energetic person -- Antonio Garcia Garcia -- I began to sense a very determined, self-confident man who rejected the idea of oral communication (I had asked whether he had Skype) as very inferior to written exchanges. To me this seemed somewhat extreme, because I've had very good converstions with a fair number of people, conversations that cemented our connections. However, he is apparently determined to have no part of such exchanges. If I answered him at the rate he was writing I'd have inadequate time to deal with other folks -- a dilemma. Even now I have not yet read your essay, The Logic of Cooperation: The Science of Progressive Management at , which I think may open a new window for me. And that's something I've meant to read since 7 Nov! Really no valid excuse for delaying. In fact, there are many things I've intended to read, not just your essay. All best wishes, George
Subject: Re: a bit more direct - a delayed acknowledgment
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 07:42:35 -0500
Hello George,
      A deliberate tempo is entirely acceptable. Let me replace the original offering with another which is really more to the core of the process of progressive management and thereby non-authoritarian leadership. That is "The Logic of Cooperation: The Science of Progressive Management" at this link . I have not heard back from Shawn at Kent state after the first acknowledgement. If our reach sometimes exceeds our grasp, it is not always a failing particularly in the zone of cultural change. This process often takes considerable time and persistence/patience. Talking and walking the talk can also accomplish a great deal. Here I've had actually a fairly long time in the wilderness, so to speak, and seem to have more to share in the way of aspirations and ideals with much younger people, who are generally shut out of occupational mobility at this point, though they are generally well educated. Many from my generation flipped into accommodating corporatism, but then many of them only had a commitment at the level of fashionability. I do what I can including walking the talk and continuing my research and writing. I am not exactly an agnostic on these matters, choosing to believe that opportunity favors the prepared mind and that opportunities will present themselves if we pay attention.
      Enjoy the moment and share along the way. Tadit
9. Curtis Muhammad
Subject: RE: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: Curtis Muhammad <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:35:56 -0600
Hey Comrade George,
      I can only hope that I am as strong, militant, radical and political at 90 too. How are you and Nancy?
      I've been planning to come down there for months and haven't made it yet. Maybe soon.
Take care, --Curtis
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:25:15 -0600
Oaxaca, Mexico, Saturday 19 December 2009
Hi Curtis,
      Many thanks for your generous comments. I wish they were all justified. Except for the age -- won't be 90 until 2015, though at times I feel like I'm schlepping my ass as if I'm already there. But in truth Nancy and I are managing as well as possible here in the same house where you visited us. From the phrase "come down there" I guess you're back up in the States. It would be great to see you here again. Of course I'm disgusted with the entire political scene, in the U.S. and just about everywhere else. My main hope lies in the younger people. We've got a long struggle ahead.
All the best, George
10. Jerome _______ From: Jerome _______ <>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 11:58:44 -0700
Hi George from Jerome in Albuquerque Nuevo México,
      Your piece on circles of trust and communication was quite a thought provoker. I have dipped my toe gingerly into several of the overly-commodified, advertizing drenched social network utilities, and have lots of problems with them.
      There's one thing I do like about, say, FakeBook: the ability to put an idea out there in a space where people react to it in various ways, *with everyone able to view each other's responses*, which sometimes creates meta-ideas that are equally satisfying. Does your system of concentric circles allow for this?
      Please keep me on your list. I was last in Oaxaca in '04 and I really enjoy reading your updates.
Regards, Jerome
Subject: Query
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 04:36:23 -0600
To: Jerome _______ <>
      I don't recognize you as someone I've met, nor are you on my Notes of an anarchist physicist listserv. So I'm wondering how you got my e-mail item. To my knowledge you are not on any of my lists. If you'd like to be added to my base e-mail list, please let me know your last name. Thanks, George
11. Guillermo Monteforte
Subject: Re: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: Guillermo Monteforte <>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:34:22 -0600
Hi George!!
      Hope you are well.
      I want to confirm my e-mail address. I must confess that I don't always read everything you send, because if you are slow reader, then I am practically illiterate. Being extremely slow, and also disorganized and busy, prevents me from delving into your texts the way I would like to. However, please, don't remove me from your list. Of the five categories, I am especially interested in (1) Anarchy and Theory and (4) Oaxaca and Mexico.
      I admire your work, energy and passion. You're an example for many of us.
Big hugs to you and Nancy. Guillermo
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:47:52 -0600
Dear Guillermo,
      Of all the people I've become acquainted with in Oaxaca, you're the one to whom I owe the most. Starting with that first trip we were on together -- I think in the Chiapas Media Project group that went to La Garrucha for a few days of workshops to teach video techniques to indigenous folks in the area of that caracol. Probably that was in the summer of 1998. You suggested then that I come for a couple of weeks that fall to visit with you and to have a chance to meet a number of people in and reachable from Oaxaca City. I did come, you introduced me to many good people, and that's how this whole adventure began.
      As for work, energy and passion, I don't know anyone more committed to the work of assisting indigenous peoples to record and tell their own visions of their cutures untarnished by the influence of "Western values". Thank you for all you've done for Nancy and me.
Un abrazo fuerte, George
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:14:56 -0600
Dear Geroge.
      Thanks for the warmth in your words, they give me energy to keep moving, even now when the going is getting rough.
      But stubborn people like you and me don't scare off so easy.
More big, warm hugs. Guillermo
12. Kevin Bailey O'Brien
Subject: Re: [noaap] Circles of trust for communication - an idea for REAL communication
From: (Kevin Bailey O'Brien) <>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:25:51 -0800 (PST)
      This sounds like a very interesting concept. I wonder if there would be a way to incorporate a circle of trust into Thunderbird easily.
      I hope Oaxaca is still treating you well.
Cheers, Kevin
P.S. If you do want to update your e-mail list at some point, my new e-mail is <>
Subject: OK, now I know who you are
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:17:52 -0600
To: Kevin O'Brien <>
      I finally found you, but not easily. Don't know the answer to your question. Have we ever met? I was temporarily overwhelmed by the responses to my e-mail. People, a lot of them, are really fed up with all the pseudo communication spawned by the technologically feasible possibility of saying nothing of substance to myriads of people. I'm working on responding, which I'll do with a posting to my website when it's ready.
Good wishes, George
P.S. Oaxaca treats its privileged gringos well, in the midst of this fascist regime that kills impoverished indigenous people with barely a second thought.
Subject: RE: OK, now I know who you are
From: Kevin Bailey O'Brien <>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:27:55 -0800
Hi George,
      We met a little over two years ago when I visited Oaxaca for a couple of weeks. We had coffee and you showed me the destruction that was done to the observatory. At the time, I was interested in opinions from Narco News commentators cause I was writing a story about Narco News for a class. I was quite surprised at how easily you tackled climbing up the hill at your age.
      I'm actually coming back down to Oaxaca in January, the 14th - 19th, so if you care to meet up sometime to discuss politics or philosophy, I'd enjoy it, but I also know that you are a busy man.
Cheers, Kevin O'Brien
Enterprise Content Management System Analyst
Division of Information Technology
San Francisco State University
13. Magical Marty
Subject: Re: [noaap] Building circles of trust - takes effort
From: Magical Marty <>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:39:38 -0600
      I felt great hope in reading this. The email was forwarded to me. I would be honored to be included on your mailing list directly at Thank you so much.
----On 11/26/09, George Salzman <> wrote:----
Oaxaca, Mexico, Thursday 26 November 2009
      1. Twelve of you responded to the 2009-11-11 mailing on "Circles of . . .
Subject: Thank you, and request for additional info for posting
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 09:14:29 -0600
Oaxaca, Mexico, Friday 27 November 2009
      Thank you for writing and telling me how you received my e-mail. I'll be glad to add your name to my listserv, but I have a request. Please tell me your real name, so that I can enter you in a way that will appear to be not a subterfuge to someone else who sees possible notes we might exchange in the future. I did see, at the very end of your e-mail, the "signature"

-- consider yourself invited to be my synergistic collaborative ally with our only goal being to improve our ability to serve each other. --[][][]--[][][]--Put This --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--On Your --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--Profile If --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--You Believe --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--9/11 Was --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--An --[][][]--[][][]-- --[][][]--[][][]--INSIDE JOB

and when I went to , it connected to which gave me some info about you. So indeed you are a real person and you are not trying to remain anonymous with the label "Magical Marty".
      I'm trying to get folks to communicate openly, publicly, and of course honestly. And having someone's real name helps to avoid even a suggestion of attempted anonymity. Thanks for telling about your experiences. There must be billions of us in the world looking for ways to make life not only possible but fulfilling.
Sincerely, George
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:00:32 -0600
      Magicalmarty Is My Real Name. I Understand Your Concerns. If It's Problematic, I Withdraw My Request.
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:47:28 -0600
To: Magical Marty <>
      OK, you have a right to, as my good friend Joe Bageant would say, yer own handle. There's no real problem for me, just a preference of an old man who has trouble with all the pseudo-names young people use on the internet.
All the best, George

      I had been in contact with the folks above (except for Magical Marty, #13) before the e-mail of 11 Nov 2009. I'll be responding, and adding the correspondence to this post as I do, thereby introducing each of you to the others.
      The thirteen people in the group below learned of my existence, presumably for the first time, when they received my e-mail of 2009-14-11 titled "Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States." Two things ought to be stated before proceeding.
      First, I undertook to expose the hacked information from David Irving's files in the belief that I was revealing a Zionist-allied person or group sabotaging Irving's U.S. speaking tour. I was in fact mistaken -- the group responsible for disseminating the hacked information, which claimed to be an anti-fascist group, is not Zionist. It is the One People's Project that was founded by Daryle Lamont Jenkins. Daryle, with whom I subsequently had an e-mail exchange and a valuable conversation convinced me that he and the group is sincerely anti-fascist. A glance at their website, at, quickly shows that their stance is one of aggressively attacking actions they consider potentially dangerous, like David Irving's speaking tour. Although I believe Daryle is sincere, I think their tactic is badly mistaken, as I will discuss when I write him subsequently.

      The second disclosure I should make to the thirteen new contacts is "where I'm coming from", so that they can understand why I am making this effort to develop open public communications, to which some of them may object out of concern for their privacy.
      My ideological position, extreme in the eyes of many people, emerged in my correspondence with Israel Shamir, a friend with whom I discussed our differing viewpoints. Following is an excerpt from a letter I wrote him in June 2009.
      . . . Not incidentally for our discussion, I also believe all religion ought to be seen as illegitimate. But I'll leave this for another time. If you don't like my labelling something 'illegitimate' beause it is socially harmful I can simply say it is a belief, a practice, an institution, or whatever, that ought to be discarded because it is socially destructive. My list of such things is quite large, including:
   the practice of measured exchange, buying,
   all coercive hierarchies,
   violence, physical and psychologcal,
   private property not held for personal use (a toothbrush is legitimate private property),
   exploitation of other people's labor,
   exploitation of natural resources,
   the fetish of modernization and energy infinitum,
   indulgence in destructive, non-essential travel, especially by airplanes,
   the existence of economically differentiated classes,
   und so weite.
     OK Israel, so it's clear I'm really a nutcase. Ask any credentialed psychiatrist. I'm probably going to tackle you on the issue of war, where I think you're quite off base, but for the moment this is enough. I love your openness, your readiness to say what you think and your willingness – one might almost say eagerness – to have it out in the open. I'm disgusted with people who want to say 'brave things' that they caution me to keep private. What a pleasure it was to get your letter that began, "First of all, certainly everything I write may be forwarded and published in any way you find fit." When I saw that I thought, WOW! This guy is a mensch. No wonder so many Zionists hate his guts. He must have had really loving parents to carry so much self-assurance into his mature life. A joy to argue with.
All the best,
P.S. Do you know Mohammed Omer or his family in Gaza?

1. Hal Womack
Subject: Acknowledgement re E-Trashing
From: Hal Womack <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:04:23 -0800

Dear George Salzman,
     Thanks for your prompt response to the cyber-attack against my world-famous friend David Irving. Before opening your email, I was thinking of the headline "Jews Declare War Against Internet". Also, in view of your wording, I'll point out one of my relevant coinages from at least as far back as 1994 = "NaZionist*.
     Of course, for the persistent kabal which shot Lord Moyne, Count Folke Bernadotte, JFK, RFK, MLK, the sailors of the USS LIBERTY, pulled off the 9/11 stunt and in the last two decades has murdered an estimated 7 million victims in Iraq and Afghanistan alone, besides last New Year's Gaza Massacre --what else's new?
     You reckon the rest of us should be jealous that King Kissinger's JAT or "Jewish-American Tyranny" picked out Mr.Irving first of all for this honor?
     In this regard I also cite my recent Usenet post about David's current tour**. Herewith D.I's remaining scheduled U.S. appearances: . . .
IMHO all near-by honorable souls will make an extra effort to defeat the latest spasm by the JJ or joojingo murderers by attending in the flesh. Best regards, Hal Womack [He then has various links, I think not worth attention]

2. Jessica Irving
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: Jessica Irving <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:39:22 +0000
To: George Salzman <>

Why have I been sent this?
Subject: Answer to your question
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 07:45:22 -0600

Oaxaca, Mexico, Saturday 14 November 2009
Dear Jessica Irving,
     You and I were two of the very large number of people to whom the malicious e-mail was sent. A great effort has been made by Zionist supporters in the United States and elsewhere to control public discourse in order to prevent ordinary people from being aware of the horrific destruction that the Israelis are committing against the Palestinians. I have been slandered -- labelled an anti-Semite -- because I have spoken out against the conquest of Palestine. The label is absurd, as anyone who takes the trouble to examine any of the material on my website can immediately discern. I am an older, former American Jew, a veteran of the U.S. Army in World War II, committed to insuring that there will be a world worth living in for our grandchildren and subsequent generations.
     Immediately following the e-mail that I sent you, which ended with . . . there was, in the original mail sent me, a lengthy list of people, which included you, that began . . .
     You may see my most recent posted item by clicking on the link My website is at A list of all my most recent postings is at I hope this clarifies why I sent you the e-mail. Sincerely, George
[I CC'd the response to Jessica Irving to many others. Then I got:]
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
From: M[ichael] L[loede] & Mary Ann Loede <>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:37:56 -0800 (PST)
To: George Salzman <>
     Please do not send anymore emails to this adress. michaels new email is <>
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:51:43 -0600
To: M[ichael] L[loede] & Mary Ann Loede <>

Dear Michael Loede and Mary Ann Loede,
     I trust you understand why I sent my original informational mailing. It subsequently turned out that the group One People's Project <> responsible for publicizing information about David Irving's lecture itinerary and correspondence does actually consider itself to be an anti-fascist organization. I was mistaken in thinking it was a pro-Zionist group of Americans. Here is the exchange we've had thus far. Sincerely, George

3. Stacey Decker
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: Stacey Decker <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:47:10 -0800 (PST)
To: George Salzman <>
     These weasals don't scare me. I'm am still going to support Irving. I refuse to live in their totalitarian Marxist world where Political Correctness is the state religion. Let the war begin!
[on 2009-11-30 I rec'd an e-mail from Stacey Decker on the Subject: Response to: Why am I on this list? I am totally confused. I wrote her the note at 2009-11-30 Stacey Decker]
Subject: Re: Response to: Why am I on this list? I am totally confused.
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 06:48:29 -0800 (PST)
      I have no problem helping you out, but I don't see why everything has to be posted and publicized. It's not that I'm paranoid it just gets annoying after a while. Again, I will help you in any way I can although I am not sure what you need from me. One thing I respectfully request is to keep the posting of my name and other private matters to a minimum. Is that fair?
Thank you!
Subject: Re: Response to: Why am I on this list? I am totally confused.
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:05:04 -0600
Hi Stacey,
      Thank you for your generous offer to help in any way you can. If you feel so inclined, you can correspond with some of the other eleven folks who responded to my original posting. I certainly don't want to become an annoyance to anyone, and I don't anticipate writing any more notes to the entire group of twelve who originally responded. Those who ask to be included in future mailings from my Notes of an anarchist physicist listserv will get added to my list. Otherwise, there's likely to be minimal future notice of the material on my posting, .
      My goal is to prevent all censorship. As you must be aware (I assume) pro-Zionist efforts to prevent open public discussion of Israeli government policy and actions are formidable, and in my opinion enormously destructive, to the extent that they are effective. My reason for posting and publicizing their activities is to "smoke them out", principally by alerting non-Jewish Americans. I appreciate your understanding and your unwillingness to be made paranoid.
Sincerely, with all good wishes, George
Subject: Re: Response to: Why am I on this list? I am totally confused.
From: Stacey Decker <>
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:50:36 -0800 (PST)
      I am with you 100% I appreciate your courage for being a Jewish man who is standing up to Zionism in all its nasty forms. I admire that type of moral and intellectual courage. One of my best friends is just like you. Thank you for all that you do and let me know how I can help. I just don't like my private information being posted. I'm not hiding anything, but I hate being annoyed by unwanted emails and whatnot. You can continue to email me whenver you want though. You are not being annoying. Just respect my privacy and we can have a productive relationship.
Subject: Thank you for being so supportive
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:27:41 -0600
      Stacey, I appreciate the encouragement from people like you who take the trouble to write a personal note. I'll add your name to my Notes of an anarchist physicist [noaap] listserv. Messages to that group are fairly infrequent and usually quite brief. If you ever want to be removed, just let me know. I'm hopeful that with the open uncensored public communication that the internet makes possible we'll be able to change the course of history to begin building a global social order that's good for people instead of being geared for materialism and profits. Best wishes, and thanks again. George

4. David Cobain
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
From: David Cobain <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:26:44 -0500
     I commend you, Sir, for your discernment and your courage. I would add that I, too, am no hate-riddled 'anti-Semite', but a veteran international journalist as convinced as you, and mercifully a growing number of others, of the viciousness of the world-threatening assault on the Palestinian people by rampant Zionism. (The point should also be made, of course, in connection with the widely and often deliberately misused term 'anti-Semitism', that the Palestinians are Semites, whereas the Ashkenazic Jews who constitute a majority of the inhabitants of Israel are nothing of the sort -- which invalidates the so-called 'Law of the Return'.)
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:37:50 -0600
      Dear Mr. Cobain, Thank you very much for writing and for your support for humane values, so much under assault throughout the world today. I was simply not able to get right back to you, and in the meantime your further communication came. It's posted here as 11. David Cobain (further comment). I'm pleased that no one has written asking me not to post his/her comments. It appears that at least this small sample of people is not intimidated. Sincerely, with best wishes, George

5 William 'Chip' Lamb
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
From: William 'Chip' Lamb <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:50:28 -0500
To: George Salzman <>
      What a mess! I had David [Irving] & Jaenelle here in Richmond as house guests last weekend. These hackers are off their rocker, hopefully you can help David track them down and sue them into next week. C[Chip]
David Cobain
Subject: Re: Building circles of trust - takes effort
From: William 'Chip' Lamb <>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:55:23 -0500
     Interesting. Since your mail was the first I received of David [Irving]'s AOL account being hacked into and his address book strewn to the four winds, my initial reply to you was uninformed.
     For those unfamiliar with you, you might put your website as a point of reference in a signature field. Some interesting reading to be sure.
     My read on the "One People's Project" is that they are irresponsibly impulsive and do not serve the ends they claim to desire. More recently, they have been behind very violent actions that do not seem to be geared towards tolerance and understanding.
     It remains my belief that David Irving merely wants to get to the bottom of many unanswered questions in history through purer research in primary source material than most historians choose to undertake. Irving, for whatever reason, picked a very controversial period long ago and has been through so much that his interpretation of said history has become colored by the frustration he no doubt feels towards those who would color him in the extreme. In many instances, he has not helped alleviate this strain he must feel and in many cases has likely exacerbated it! However, identifying Irving as in league with skinheads and Neo-Nazis serves only the cause of those who would call him a 'Holocaust Denier'. While skinheads and Neo-Nazis are likely drawn to interpretations of history that serve their own ends, they are also apparently interested in firearms and tattoos that likewise serve their own ends. Personally, I feel that this is a largely-undeserved moniker; as Irving and others have with varying degrees of caution pointed out, Stalinist-era laws soaked in anti-German propaganda muddied history began many of the myths that persevere to this day.
     While many truths are not obscured - i.e. the terrible deaths of millions of Jews, Gypsies, dissidents etc. in what is now generally known as the Holocaust - exactly how these events transpired should be open to greater debate. Examples: Irving himself makes the point that the paper trail points to MORE deaths in the camps of 'Operation Reinhard' than is generally accepted. This indeed casts the shadow on accepted history clouded further by the myth that gas chambers existed for mass-murder purposes at Dachau (not necessarily that the Munich-area camp was without means towards mass-execution or that the death tolls are any less) as well as the reconstruction of the gas chambers and crematoria at Auschwitz under Soviet supervision in 1948, the latter point freely admitted to by a sign at that site. Perhaps the Polish-Soviet reconstructions are accurate ones, but there is no real way to know.
     One tip - you might be less cavalier in future sending out mass e-mails that were stolen from someone else's account, regardless of who stole them.
Cheers, Chip
----At 11:16 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote:----
> Oaxaca, Mexico, Thursday 26 November 2009
> Friends,
>      1. Twelve of you responded to the 2009-11-11 mailing on "Circles of trust for communication" -- a veritable deluge for me to deal with more than superficially. I have begun to answer in a way that will introduce you to each of the others, in a new posting,
> Person-to-person real communication . . .

6. Tom Hartman
Subject: Re: ADVISORY: Anti-Fascist Hackers Destroy Holocaust Denier David Irving's Website and Release Private Emails, Attendee Lists
From: Tom Hartman <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:35:48 -0800 (PST)
      If you think a crime has been committed, report it here:
Subject: I don't understand your advice
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:09:10 -0600
To: Tom Hartman <>
BCC:, . . .
      Of what use is your advice, if the reality is that the greatest crime in the United States IS the existence of the government?
      Are you the same person as Thom Hartman?
Sincerely, George
Subject: Re: I don't understand your advice
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:01:37 GMT
Dear valued customer,
      Your email has been received by the upgrade support team and you will receive a response within the next 24 hours.
      Please visit to find answers to many common questions regarding the upgrade to the enhanced hosting platform: - how to set up your email account. - how to connect to your site using FTP. - what are the new DNS settings.
      We appreciate your business and look forward to your feedback on the new platform.
Subject: Re: Building circles of trust - takes effort
From: Tom Hartman <>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 08:44:49 -0800 (PST)
To: George Salzman <>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:51:02 -0600
To: Tom Hartman <>, One People's Project <>, Daryle Lamont Jenkins <>
      This is the second occasion on which I received, supposedly from a Tom Hartman <>, a link that led to no information I would credit. I will not pay any attention to "you" whoever "you" may be, unless "you" identify "yourself" with information that I can verify. Absent such info, I will have anything else from "you" automatically filtered to a trash folder. George Salzman

7. James Damon
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: James Damon <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:26:41 -0800 (PST)
      Yes indeed, the "traditional enemies of truth" are clearly growing more desperate and more dangerous. This suggests to me that we should increase our support of David Irving, whom they obviously consider the greatest threat to the "Talmudic Inquisition."
                  "Here's Freedom to him who would read,
                  Here's Freedom to him who would write;
                  For there's none ever feared the Truth would be heard
                  Save him whom the Truth would indict."
                                    --Robert Burns, 1759-96
Regards, jmd

8. Michael E. Badgett
[Contact G. Salzman for the complete original e-mail from Mr.Badgett.]
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: Michael E. Badgett <>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 02:43:27 -0500
Mr. Salzman,
      I thought you may find these of interest:
Tuesday, November 03, 2009, 6:06:05 PM | FlashpointsGo to full article
Judge Richard Goldstone
      The US Congress votes to condemn the Goldstone Report, which corroborates Palestinians' accounts of massive war crimes during the massacres in Gaza earlier this year, we'll speak to a poet and activist who was disinvited from a conference of the so-called alternative to the pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC, because of his views on Palestine; also, legendary economist Naomi Klein talks about California's budget crisis, student fee hikes and disaster capitalism in a recent speech at UC Berkeley; and the Knight Report.
Download this clip []
Monday, November 09, 2009, 4:09:30 PM | FlashpointsGo to full article
Malalai Joya
      We'll speak to a courageous, young Afghan parliamentarian suspended from Parliament for speaking out against the growing corruption and the rise of warlords in US-occupied Afghanistan; also, former Palestinian political prisoner speaks out against the ongoing and systematic torture meted out in Israeli prisons; plus, we'll hear about an action by the American Indian Movement against the racist use of Indian names for mascots in professional sports; and the Knight Report.
LISTEN ONLINE: Download this clip [go to 2009-11-14-4]
Play this clip in your Computer's media player [go to 2009-11-14-4]
Malalai Joya, former Afghan Parliamentarian, author, A Woman Among Warlords: The Extraordinary Story of an Afghan Woman Who Dared to Raise Her Voice [go to 2009-11-14-4]
Ala' Jaradat, program manager of Addameer Palestinian Prisoners' Rights Organization [go to 2009-11-14-4]
Hope you are well,
The Future Is Now!
Peace Takes Courage
Together We Can Make A Difference!
Michael E. Badgett
217 W. Church St.
Mount Airy , NC 27030
P.S. "Force always attracts men of low morality." - Albert Einstein - (1879-1955) Physicist and Professor, Nobel Prize 1921

9. Daryle Lamont Jenkins (
Subject: Nazi Zionist supporters labelling themselves Anti-fascists
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:17:04 -0600
To: [2009-11-15-1 Nazi Zionist supporters labelling themselves Anti-fascists]

Subject: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:19:32 -0600
To: undisclosed-recipients
----Message from----
George Salzman, Prof. Emeritus of (Theoretical) Physics
Univ of Massachusetts-Boston Campus
      Along with various others, I received an unsolicited malicious e-mail designed to harrass and impede a public speaking tour in the United States . . .
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist supporters labelling themselves Anti-fascists
From: One People's Project <>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 06:44:11 -0800
Dear Prof. Salzman:
      Can you clarify what your concern might be? I noticed on your website that you are involved with the Palestinian campaign and that you are anti-Zionist. Do you consider yourself a leftist? Do you believe that David Irving should be left alone? OPP [One People's Project]
Subject: Anonymous inquiry unacceptable
From: George Salzman <>
Date:To: One People's Project <>
      I do not correspond with anonymous parties. Unless you identify who you are with readily verifiable information, there will be no further response.
George Salzman, Prof. Emeritus of (Theoretical) Physics
University of Massachusetts - Boston Campus
Subject: Re: Anonymous inquiry unacceptable
From: One People's Project <>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 08:11:17 -0800
To: George Salzman <>
      Sir, I was responding to an email you sent us, so I simply assumed you knew who we were. I apologize for that. I am the spokesperson of One People's Project, an anti-racist organization.
Daryle Lamont Jenkins
One People's Project
Subject: Thank you for the clarification
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:14:57 -0600
To: Daryle Lamont Jenkins <>

Oaxaca, Mexico, Monday 16 November 2009
Dear Mr. Jenkins,
      I tried to telephone you a short time ago but without anyone answering the phone. Now however I know that you are a real identifiable person and I'll be glad to be in touch. I am in accord with your underlying opposition to racism, as is evident from many postings on my website, but I am convinced that tactically your efforts are a great mistake. The article sent me with the heading
Subject: ADVISORY: Anti-Fascist Hackers Destroy Holocaust Denier David Irving's Website and Release Private Emails, Attendee Lists
From: <>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:58:26 -0500 which was (if I'm not mistaken) on your website, held that David Irving's planned public speaking tour in the U.S. should be prevented, to the greatest extent possible. That is of course the same tactic that the supporters of the Zionist conquest of the Palestinians use in the U.S. I believe that tactic is both a great mistake and very dangerous. It is not that I am in sympathy with the "Holocaust denyers", whose right to state their opinions, even when they are totally wrong, should be protected. Let's talk.
Sincerely, George
P.S. Attached is the e-mail I received, and the complete list of e-mail addresses sent me.
Daryle and I had a good talk on Monday 16 Nov afternoon.
Subject: Recent essays of George Salzman
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:14:47 -0600
Hi Daryle,
      I enjoyed talking with you, and look forward to more contacts between us.
Best wishes, George
Subject: Re: Thank you for the clarification
From: One People's Project <>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:43:45 -0800
Prof. Salzman:
      Again I must apologize. I was on the road when you called. Feel free to call me again anytime.
      Our position as a group is to diminish the ability for right wingers to function, but our most effective tool has been to learn who is who among those circles and educate the public on their activities. When David Horowitz brought anti-Muslim Danish politican Geert Wilders to Temple University, we were among those who demonstrated outside the hall, a protest that was formed with less than 24 hours notice because the student organization that brought him in - that no one knew existed until then - kept it under wraps until the last minute.
      I must say one of the first things that will raise a red flag with me always, and why you received my first email is when the free speech issue comes up. Insofar as dealing with David Irving is a free speech issue, it is the agenda behind what he and his supporters publicly say that says all of our freedoms are in danger should we allow them to further that agenda. Often when the defense of their freedom of speech comes up, that part tends to get ignored, and if we don't use our freedoms to call them out as well as defend their freedom of speech (which in truth will be a defense of our own) we can end up diminishing our freedoms. Perhaps they know that, which is why Mr. Irving (that was his email address) sent that mass email.
      I see the other reason however. I recognize those email addresses from the list of addresses that were posted onto his website by the hackers who broke in, took everything they found and made it public. Your email address is among those that Irving had on his server, so I believe he was giving everyone whose email address he had a heads-up. That's why you didn't know who we were; you weren't the original sender of the email we received. Irving was!
      I would love to talk further, because one of the biggest issues we have at OPP is either the leniency, or even worse, the blind eye, progressives have given to fascists simply because they support the fight of the Palestinan people. It doesn't serve anyone to support those who if given the slightest chance would move to hurt us and those around us. We need to discuss how to prevent that.
Daryle Lamont Jenkins
One People's Project
From: George Salzman <>
To: Notes of an Anarchist Physicist ; Hal Womack ; Jessica Irving ; Stacey Decker ; David Cobain ; William 'Chip' Lamb ; Tom Hartman ; James Damon ; Michael E. Badgett ; Daryle Lamont Jenkins ; Travis _______ at SE ; David M Adkturn ; Barbara Gravesen
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Attempt to prevent David Irving's lectures in the U.S.
From: Daryle Lamont Jenkins <>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:48:34 -0500
      I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the Irving thing, but the one thing I will say in my defense is that there is much, much more than just even confronting David Irving. Also, I must apologize for not getting back to you after you emailed me the last time. I am out and about, and the holidays also got me bogged down, but I definitely want to talk more in a few weeks.
Daryle Lamont Jenkins
Subject: Re: Attempt to prevent David Irving's lectures in the U.S.
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:54:48 -0600
Hi Daryle,
      Please just call me George. No fancy titles is my preference. I look forward to talking with you again when things slow down a bit for you.
      I'm confused by your letter of 2009-11-16. You wrote there, in part,

      I must say one of the first things that will raise a red flag with me always, and why you received my first email is when the free speech issue comes up. Insofar as dealing with David Irving is a free speech issue, it is the agenda behind what he and his supporters publicly say that says all of our freedoms are in danger should we allow them to further that agenda. Often when the defense of their freedom of speech comes up, that part tends to get ignored, and if we don't use our freedoms to call them out as well as defend their freedom of speech (which in truth will be a defense of our own) we can end up diminishing our freedoms. [1] Perhaps they know that, which is why Mr. Irving (that was his email address) sent that mass email.
      I see the other reason however. [2]I recognize those email addresses from the list of addresses that were posted onto his website by the hackers who broke in, took everything they found and made it public. Your email address is among those that Irving had on his server, so [3]I believe he was giving everyone whose email address he had a heads-up. That's why you didn't know who we were; you weren't the original sender of the email we received. Irving was!
      I would love to talk further, because one of the biggest issues we have at OPP is either the leniency, or even worse, the blind eye, progressives have given to fascists simply because they support the fight of the Palestinan people. It doesn't serve anyone to support those who if given the slightest chance would move to hurt us and those around us. We need to discuss how to prevent that.

      The first part of the first paragraph is fine -- I agree with it. The part [1] affirms your belief that the initial mass e-mail was Irving's work, mentioning that the e-mail address of the sender was <>. This seems to be very doubtful, especially in view of the fact that your website bristles with boasts of your "successes" in breaking up his (and other) events that you considered to be intended to incite aggressive actions against Blacks, Latinos and other "enemies of Whites", "successes" you achieved even when getting information at the last minute. I see no reason why Irving would be so stupid as to telegraph his upcoming scheduled lectures, knowing that by giving a "heads up" he was inviting disruption of his planned appearances. How can you explain such supposed action on his part? As for the supposed sender's e-mail address being his, I've had enough experience with falsified sender's addresses to know that's not conclusive evidence that he sent it. More likely, I would have thought, that there's someone in your group internet saavy enough to have hacked Irving's computer.
      With regard to [2], you speak of "hackers who broke in" to his website, "took everything they found and made it public". I'm guessing, though I'm not sure, that "those email addresses" you say in [2] you recognize refers to the list of twelve:
                  1. Hal Womack
                  2. Jessica Irving
                  3. Stacey Decker
                  4. David Cobain
                  5. William 'Chip' Lamb
                  6. Tom Hartman
                  7. James Damon
                  8. Michael E. Badgett
                  9. Daryle Lamont Jenkins ()
                  10. Travis _______ at SE
                  11. David Cobain (further comment)
                  12. David M Adkturn
                  13. Barbara Gravesen Then in [3] you again refer to either the hacker or Irving, saying that the reason I didn't know who you were was that I wasn't the original sender of the e-mail you "received. Irving was"! That's not correct. The reason I didn't know was not because
either the original message I received from you was merely

          Subject: Nazi Zionist supporters labelling themselves Anti-fascists
          Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:17:04 -0600

or because I did not at once identify <> as David Irving's address. I had never heard of you before, failed to do a Google search right away on either antifa or onepeoplesproject, simply because I assumed it was some Zionist outfit trying to stifle open public discussion of Israel's conduct. Your assertion that you weren't "the original sender of the e-mail" [I] "received. Irving was"! is mistaken if you are referring to the e-mail that began

Subject:Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: George Salzman <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:19:32 -0600
To: undisclosed-recipients
Message from
George Salzman, Prof. Emeritus of (Theoretical) Physics
Univ of Massachusetts-Boston Campus
      Along with various others, I received an unsolicited malicious e-mail designed to harrass and impede a public speaking tour in the United States.
The message header is:
Subject: ADVISORY: Anti-Fascist Hackers Destroy Holocaust Denier David Irving's Website and Release Private Emails, Attendee Lists
From: <>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:58:26 -0500
      The body of the message, except for the list of addressees it supposedly exposes, follows:
George Salzman

      That message indeed did come from me. As for the third paragraph of yours that I quoted above, we totally agree. "Progressives" who turn a blind eye to fascists simply because they support the fight of the Palestinan people disgust me. And many of them, I might add, are identified as being Jewish. I look forward to clarifying my understanding of the facts. Very sincerely, George

10. Travis _______ at SE
Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: Travis _______ at SE <>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 10:44:44 -0800 (PST)
      Wow...this is terrible. Thanks for the email. Damned script-kiddie punks.
      I've just cancelled the credit card I'd used and checked my account for unauthorized use.
      Is there anything I can do to help?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:03:05 -0600
To: Travis at SE <>
I cannot offer you advice, sorry. George
P.S. Your e-mail address is indeed on one of their lists.

11. David Cobain (further comment)
Subject: Re: I don't understand your advice
From: David Cobain <>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:49:22 -0500
      What this man Hartman is saying, I presume, professor, is that if these scumbags who are attempting to interfere with David Irving's speaking tour have committed a crime by their endeavours, it should be reported to the Internet Crime Center. Sounds like a reasonable idea to me, one that I immediately considered when first apprised of their electronic gutter activities. After all, we have all had our names and email addresses, etc., bandied about on the internet without our being informed, let alone asked for permission.
      The crime inherent in the existence of government, particularly the U.S. government, is quite another matter. Dunno who one would report that to, except, maybe, God, who doesn't need such diligence on our part.
      Anyway...thanks again for your courageous outspokenness on this matter.
Sincerely, David Cobain
----On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 2:09 PM, George Salzman <> wrote:----
6. Subject: Re: ADVISORY: Anti-Fascist Hackers Destroy Holocaust Denier David Irving's Website and Release Private Emails, Attendee Lists
From: Tom Hartman
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:35:48 -0800 (PST)
[I must have CC'd David Cobain in my response to Tom Hartman's retort]

12. David M Adkturn
Subject: RE: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: David M Adkturn <>
Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:24:40 -0500
      Prof. Salzman: if you could re-send your 1st email entitled "Answer To Your Question", it was deleted from my Junk folder before I realized who you were and the urgency of your message. I'm very distressed by the cyber-attack on David Irving. Neo-Nazism has struck America...and I don't mean Mr. Irving!! Thanks, David
Subject: Resending original message as you requested
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:52:33 -0600
Hi David,
      The message, to Jessica Irving <>, is #2. below.
      I would appreciate it if you let me know your full name. Thanks, George
1. Hal Womack
2. Jessica Irving
3. Stacey Decker
4. David Cobain
5. William 'Chip' Lamb
6. Tom Hartman
7. James Damon
8. Michael E. Badgett
9a. To:
9b. One People's Project
10. Travis _______ at SE
11. David Cobain (further comment)
12. David M Adkturn
13. . . .
2. Subject: Re: Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States
From: Jessica Irving
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:39:22 +0000
To: George Salzman
Why have I been sent this?
Subject: RE: Building circles of trust - takes effort
From: David M Adkturn <>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:29:11 -0500
Dear Prof. Salzman,
      I have the highest admiration for your efforts, but you are building circles of trust to what end? It's like the presence of Ron Paul in DC: the one voice of reason and freedom in an insane asylum. Paul was a majority of one 35 years ago when he went to Congress; this many years later, he's...still a majority of one. The people who see through the fog, lies and deception that are strangling Western civilization will always be in the minority. That time has come to America, which is going the way of the Persian, Byzantine and Roman empires. Americans are either complicit in their own destruction, or are living in total denial. Then there are the sell-outs who have been promised wealth beyond dreams if they go along with the NWO [New World Order]. A few others like yourself are lucky enough to have escaped to a better society. The rest of us are trapped on the Titanic. We see the iceberg ahead, we try to warn our family and neighbors, but they are too busy partying and living in the present to listen. Sad but true. Best wishes, David

13. Barbara Gravesen
From: Barbara Gravesen <>
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:26:58 -0500
To: George Salzman <>
      On such a sensitive subject, why would you include the names and e-mail addresses of so many people that have been supportive of D.I. By the way, where did you get my e-mail address?
From: Barbara Gravesen <>
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:29:26 -0500
To: George Salzman <>
      Not sure what this is about, but the note is addressed to D.I.'s daughter. The stupid guy that sent the note included the e-mail addresses of people that support D.I. I don't know how he got my e-mail address. I did write to him about this.
Love, B
Subject: Re: Answer to your question
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:34:12 -0600
Oaxaca, Mexico, Monday 16 November 2009
Dear Barbara Gravesen,
      Many of the full names and all of the e-mail addresses were made public in the malicious e-mail sent, among others, to you and me for the obvious purpose of interfering with David Irving's public speaking tour in the U.S., as the so-called "advisory" that I included in my mail to you made clear. It began as follows:
Subject: ADVISORY: Anti-Fascist Hackers Destroy Holocaust Denier David Irving's Website and Release Private Emails, Attendee Lists
From: <>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:58:26 -0500
To:,,,,,,,,,,,,, . . .
      My purpose in writing was to help expose to the American people the despicable efforts of Zionist supporters of the Israeli Nazi state to prevent open discussion of the vital issues surrounding the ongoing conquest of the Palestinians. We should publicly deplore their actions, not cower in fear. In my opinion there is nothing that deserves to be treated as "sensitive" about this subject, as you incorrectly characterize it.
      As for where I got your e-mail address, if you had read the first bit of the "advisory" included in my e-mail, you'd have known it. Please forward this note to your friend Doris, since you addressed her in the salutation, but mailed the note to me.
Sincerely, George

14. David Irving
Subject: Destruction of Mr Irving's web site, etc.
From: David Irving <>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:20:16 -0500
To: George Salzman <>
      We regret to say that our websites were destroyed by "enemy action" five nights ago at 6pm. The FBI are investigating. No credit card data of our online customers have been compromised.
      We do apologise if the parallel theft of our e-mail account has resulted in your receiving unwanted e-mail attention; we encourage you to report any harassment or menaces contained in such messages to the police authorities, as these are federal crimes. Again, our sincere apologies.
David Irving
(now on a speaking tour in the eastern USA)
David Irving's own bookstore will re-open at shortly
[attached foto at: 2009-11-14-3foto.jpg]

15. Louis Urban Kohler
Subject: Re: [noaap] Attempt to prevent David Irving's lectures in the U.S.
From: Louis Urban Kohler <>
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 15:19:07 -0600

Hi George,
      I am so grateful for your work on Zionism.

16. Nancy English Vinal
Subject: Thanksgiving wishes.. and opinion... Building circles of trust - takes effort
From: Nancy English Vinal (Watcher) <>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:29:55 -0800 (PST)

Dear George: Thank you and Happy Thanksgiving day!
      I have met Mr. Irving, (Many years ago in Las Vegas Nevada, when I lived there.. I went to a book signing party on Sahara Avenue. Had a lovely dinner and met the author.. and bought his book at the signing as a matter of fact.)
      He was intelligent, insightful, and much less antagonistic toward "Jews" than the assassins would like to portray him.
      Wanted to go on record as saying that I for one am throughly fed up with this "anti-semitic reverse brain-washing" that is being politically forced down the throats of the sheeple. Actual facts, and what has been proven to be truth is not "popular" with the 'agenda-ites' so lies are promulgated instead by people with blatant agendas... Nuff said. Again.. a good thanksgiving day... for you and for yours. Nancy E. Vinal ---- On Thu, 11/26/09, George Salzman <> wrote:----
To: "Notes of an Anarchist Physicist" <>
Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 8:16 AM
Oaxaca, Mexico, Thursday 26 November 2009
      1. Twelve of you responded to the 2009-11-11 mailing on "Circles of trust for communication" . . .
Subject: Thanks for your note today
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:03:33 -0600
Hi Nancy,
      I would like to introduce you to the other folks on my [noaap] list. You're the next one after Tadit on my list of respondees:
            0. Jeffrey Blankfort
            1. Tadit Anderson
            2. Nancy English
            3. Fred Nagle
            . . .
and I was going to write you to ask for a little more information about you, but your note came first. Thanks for being supportive. Your first-hand experience with Irving is important to let people know about. Enjoy your Thanksgiving day.
Best wishes, Sincerely, George


[1] The privileged and the pillaged. This theme has haunted me -- an unending nightmare that I am certain – though I cannot prove it – could be ended by using the earth's resources equitably. Humanity, if survival in humane conditions is to be achieved for everyone, must close the divide between the privileged and the impoverished by eliminating the differential access to life's necessities. Unless we, the world's people, do this, and soon, the Armageddon we are now experiencing will continue, taking us ever deeper into the maelstrom of destruction — of our species and the entire biosphere. The photograph is from an article by Nidal Sakr at

[2] For hundreds of years the African continent has been savaged by European colonial regimes and the United States slave "trade" as the enslavement of black Africans is euphemistically called. High hopes among Blacks inspired by the electoral victory of the African National Congress party in 1994 have not only not been realized, but conditions among them are probably more hopeless now than they were fifteen years ago. The article at suggests how bad things are now in South Africa.

[3] Circles of trust for communication — an idea for REAL communication, 11/11/2009 at
Nazi Zionist message attempting to prevent open public discussion in the United States, 14/11/2009 at

[4] The twenty-five e-mail addresses of the respondents.
                    the thirteen who answered the 2009-11-11 e-mail
      0. Jeffrey Blankfort <jablankfort[--at--]earthlink[--dot--]net>
      1. Tadit Anderson <ideasinc[--at--]ee[--dot--]net>
      2. Nancy English <englishvinal[--at--]yahoo[--dot--]com>
      3. Fred Nagle <fnagel[--at--]earthlink[--dot--]net>
      4. Rod Stackelberg <rodstackelberg[--at--]comcast[--dot--]net>
      5. Ruth & Bruce Graves <bruthgraves[--at--]provide[--dot--]net>
      6. Antonio García García <ningunotro[--at--]hotmail[--dot--]com>
      7. Castaneda Jose <jose[--dot--]castaneda[--at--]boschrexroth-us[--dot--]com>
      8. Tadit Anderson <ideasinc[--at--]ee[--dot--]net>
      9. Curtis Muhammad <curtismuhammad[--at--]hotmail[--dot--]com>
      10. Jerome _______ <jerom3e[--at--]gmail[--dot--]com>
      11. Guillermo Monteforte <gmonteforte[--at--]laneta[--dot--]>
      12. Kevin Bailey O'Brien <kobrien[--at--]sfsu[--dot--]edu>
      13. Magical Marty <magicalmarty[--at--]gmail[--dot--]com>
                    the thirteen who answered the 2009-11-14 e-mail
      1. Hal Womack <hal[--dot--]womack[--at--]gmail[--dot--]com>
      2. Jessica Irving <x[--dot--]babes[--dot--]x@gmail[--dot--]com>
      3. Stacey Decker <mickeymctool[--at--]yahoo[--dot--]com>
      4. David Cobain <dccobain@gmail[--dot--]com>
      5. William 'Chip' Lamb <chip[--at--]wmsbrg[--dot--]com>
      6. Tom Hartman <falcon269@yahoo[--dot--]com>
      7. James Damon <jamesmdamon[--at--]yahoo[--dot--]com>
      8. Michael E. Badgett <mbadgett@roadrunner[--dot--]com>
      9a. To: <antifa[--at--]onepeoplesproject[--dot--]com>
      9b. One People's Project <antifa@onepeoplesproject[--dot--]com>
      9c. From Daryle Lamont Jenkins <antifa[--at--]onepeoplesproject[--dot--]com>
      9d. To D.L. Jenkins - Thank you for the clarification
      10. Travis _______ at SE <pewaukee70@yahoo[--dot--]com>
      11. David Cobain (further comment)
      12. David M Adkturn <adkturn[--at--]hotmail[--dot--]com>
      13. Barbara Gravesen <rgravesen[--at--]comcast[--dot--]net>

[5] Jeffrey Blankfort. He was involved with the struggle of the Palestinians against the Zionist conquest long before I was even aware of the meaning of Zionism, let alone the questionable distinction between "humanist Zionism" (supposedly good) and "political Zionism" (bad). He may be aware that my position on the conflict has evolved to place me now in the "extremist" camp. In the essay, Doing away with the state of Israel, an earned fate, I say unequivocally, "I start from the basic assumption that the entire Zionist project to plant a Jewish nation-state in the land of Palestine was illegitimate from its inception, based, as we know, on the premise that the land would be taken from its indigenous population, a conquest to be rationalized on grounds of ancient history and religious dogma, and to be achieved by serving the imperial interests of major Western nations." The complete article is at
      Jeffrey Blankfort is former editor of the Middle East Labor Bulletin and was a co-founder of the Labor Committee on the Middle East. He has been active in the Palestinian cause since traveling to Lebanon and Jordan on a photographic assignment in 1970, and has written extensively on the Israel-Palestine conflict. His photographs of the Anti-Vietnam War Movement and the Black Panthers have appeared in numerous books and magazines. He currently hosts a radio program on KZYX in Mendocino County, Northern California and lives in Ukiah in Mendocino County.
      Blankfort continues to participate actively in the debate that reflects growing widespread public doubts over the very legitimacy of the Jewish state of Israel's existence. Just the other day I came upon a contribtion to that debate at It's in the blog "Mondoweiss" of Philip Weiss. Blankfort's contribution there is comment #6 in the Nov 14, 2009 blog entry.

[6] Tadit Anderson. He initiated contact immediately after my e-mail of 2009-10-31 to the [noaap] listserv, which announced the posting at
Subject: Re: [noaap] From the Heartand, USA (Columbus, Ohio), with hate
From: Tadit Anderson <>
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:09:55 -0400
      George, I have tried to home in on what your reference is to Columbus, Ohio since I live there and could circulate your material more easily if there was a local hook. Beyond that, Columbus is a rather dark heart filled with corporatist defaults and self infatuation though the inner emptiness abounds. Tadit Anderson
      In the brief span of less than a month we've become closely aligned. Tadit is a remarkably energetic, constructive correspondent. He is heavily focussed on economic matters, as reflected in his beautifully and tastefully designed website (which is not without some humor tucked in here and there) at A note from Tadit on 22 Nov has very exciting news. He wrote, "One fairly odd and positive thing has happened for our web site. About mid week just this past week someone out of Paris France came upon our website and went through about fifteen different posts, and then extracted a couple of paragraphs of an article co-authored by John Bellamy Foster and then posted it onto an alternative media site that mainly serves French speaking people, in France, Belgium, Quebec, and Algeria. Visits for that particular article went from zero to over 100 in about a week. We hope that the new visitors will browse a bit as well. Having a broad definition for "economics" has caused search engines to also direct visitors to our site in ways we hadn't realized when we started out.
      To me it's exciting because it's another harbinger of the explosion of direct, unmediated, uncensored public communication among the world's ordinary people that we are now experiencing. So now I've introduced the first two respondents, Jeffrey Bankfort and Tadit Anderson. Lots more for me to do.

[7] Fred Nagle devotes time to his radio show, to efforts organizing for peace, to the struggle for Palestinian rights, to a Nicaraguan sister city project, and to the Dutchess Green Party A resident of Rhinebeck, NY, he also creates webpages, blogs, and YouTube videos.

[8] Antonio García García. References to article, Oaxaca: Un viaje al corazón del México Profundo (Oaxaca: a trip to the heart of Deep Mexico) by Andrés Manuel López Obrador (AMLO). The article is in four parts:
Part I.
Part II.
Part III.
Part IV.

George Salzman is a former American Jew living in Oaxaca, Mexico, an Emeritus Prof of Physics, Univ of Massachusetts-Boston.
All comments and criticisms are welcome.

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